Water Baptism is tied to Regeneration.

Protestant Person
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Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

31 Jan 2003, 22:36 #1

www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm
It's disturbing how, beginning in the 19th century, the idea that water Baptism is crucial to Salvation started to make Christians uncomfortable. In the early Church, nearly every central doctrine of Christianity was challenged:
a) the Deity of Christ (also called the nature of Him).
b) The Trinity
c) the Virgin Birth
d) Divorce and Remarriage
e) Sexual purity
...but NOT the function of Water Baptism. It was universally accepted, among true Christians, that it is directly involved in Regeneration. For 1800 years, there was no debate on this issue, because it was obvious, from the direct Word of YHWH, how it should be interpreted. So, why has mainline Protestantism drifted away from this fundamental doctrine? Answer: we think we know better than God. I am as guilty as the next Christian of doing just that. Read what the MESSIAH Himself had to say about it:
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:16 -NIV
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Mark 16:16 -KJV
"Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:16 -NLT
"Who that bileueth, and is baptisid, schal be saaf; but he that bileueth not, schal be dampned.
Mark 16:16 -Wycliffe Bible (1382).
...until Protestants can finally stop viewing Baptism as a "work," then no progress will be made towards bringing back the pure teaching on this matter.
Peace in Christ,
Evan

2 John 1:9"The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
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Protestant Person
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Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

31 Jan 2003, 22:59 #2

I would like exegetical opinions regarding John 3:5.
Granted, I don't see Baptism as a "human effort" type work. Such as, "I can save myself: I'll get Baptized." Baptism is the result of faith. However, that doesn't downplay the Regenerative property of water Baptism, with faith. One has faith and then gets Baptized. However, the latter is intricately tied to the former; or, the latter is the logical completion of the former.
Early Christians saw no difference between believing and doing. The demons in Hell believe, but what separates us from them is thus: we believe, and we DO.
John 3:5 (NIV)
"Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
John 3:5 (NLT)
"Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit."
John 3:5 (KJV)
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
John 3:5 (Wycliffe 1382)
Jhesus answeride, Treuli, treuli, Y seie to thee, but a man be borun ayen of watir, and of the Hooli Goost, he may not entre in to the kyngdom of God."
Peace in Christ,
Evan"The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
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Protestant Person
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Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

31 Jan 2003, 23:06 #3

I said, "if you cannot be Baptized, then you are given a "waiver." The instance is the theif on the cross."
"Which would demonstrate that it's not 'necessary.'"
Christ IS God! He can tell when one would be Baptized, if they had the chance, and the thief did not have the opportunity, but Christ knew he would be Baptized, given the chance. However, as a rule, Baptism is necessary! If one delays to be, or refuses to be Baptized, then do they truly believe, or are they just pretenders in the Faith? Christ spoke very plainly on this matter."The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
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Kristi
Registered User
Joined: 23 Apr 1999, 07:38

01 Feb 2003, 06:19 #4

You admitted that the thief on the cross did not get baptized and that this was okay, which is why I said that well, then, one doesn't necessarily have to be baptized then, do they?
Your own example showed this.
I had also raised the example of the thief on the cross as an incident showing that a person doesn't 'have' to be baptized.
I also cited verses by Paul where Paul said he was not sent to baptize and, esentially, Paul didn't put much stock in baptism. See my other post in the locked thread for the verses I cited. I'm too lazy to look them up and paste them here again.
Baptism could maybe be viewed as symbolic of a person's death and resurrection in Christ (although one author said that the verse cited in support of this does not even mention the word 'water,' but says that we are baptized into *Christ's death*)
. You said in another post that some try to separate faith from baptism, and I asked 'why would a person who does NOT have faith in Christ get baptized?'.
The Holy Spirit is responsible for regenerating a person.
I've done a little bit of reading about Baptismal Regeneration. You were saying that this view does not boil down to a works-based salvation, but that is not what I'm finding. One site says in part:
================================
BAPTISMAL REGENERATION teaches that ritual, water baptism secures the forgiveness of sins and marks the moment at which the one being baptized is "born again," or incorporated into the "Body of Christ." It is generally understood to be the person's "spiritual birthday," the rite by which he becomes a "Christian." Is this belief consistent with what the Bible says is true regarding God's salvation?
There is only one Gospel that must be proclaimed to a lost and dying world! Gal. 1:6-12 .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Something I found of interest]:
... Proponents of Baptismal Regeneration [include]:
The Roman Catholic Church was one of the earliest and most influential perpetrators of this error. ... The Orthodox Churches also teach baptismal regeneration: "Baptism is a new birth. It is being born to the life made new by our Lord Jesus Christ....
Mormonism says you must be baptized in order to be saved...
Seventh Day Adventism teaches baptism is the vehicle in procuring the forgiveness of sins
The Church of Christ, Episcopalians, an many Lutherans hold the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration in one form or another. The Jehovah's Witnesses and many others could be added to this number, many within Protestantism included.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Every believer who has shared the Gospel of God's saving grace with a Catholic knows the common reaction: "Of course I believe in Christ as my Saviour!"
However, after further questioning, it becomes obvious that "belief" in Christ is not their sole confidence, for they believe that their continuance in faithfulness to "the church" and the sacraments of the church are also essential if there is to be any hope of obtaining everlasting life. That kind of "believing in Christ" is not the unconditional, absolute faith that produces Bible salvation.
.... The additional requirements imposed by false teachers upon the sinner who is invited by God to receive Christ Jesus by faith is "another gospel "-a salvation by works- and God's curse is unequivocally pronounced upon it (Gal. 1:6-10)! The same is true for any supposed gospel preached today which adds any step to salvation by faith alone. Water baptism is a "good work," Biblically defined.
A "good work" seen in Scripture is simply the saint's act of obedience to the revealed will of God-it is doing something God has commanded those who are already His children.
.... Water baptism has been viewed by true believers as an outward testimony of the inward reality of having already been "born again" by the power of God. The moment the sinner trusts Christ as his Saviour, he is baptized by the Spirit of God into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13).
There is no salvation for anyone who is not "in Christ," and this spiritual regeneration takes place the moment the lost sinner receives Christ by faith (John 1:12; 5:24). All who are saved have received this baptism which God administers, not man.
Water baptism, on the other hand, is properly understood to be an ordinance of the Church ad- ministered only to those who have already been saved. Baptism by immersion symbolizes what has already been accomplished by God.
The ordinances (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) and "good works" (obedience to the will of God as found in the Word of God) are after the fact of regeneration and the result of saving faith, not a means of saving grace. Salvation cannot be conferred by any church, for the church is but a fellowship of born again believers who have already availed themselves of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Someone who has been genuinely born again by the Spirit of God will want to honor His Lord now that he has new life in Christ. He should seek out and be identified with a fundamental, Bible-believing local church where he can grow and be nurtured by the pastoral care and teaching provided there, and receive encouragement and edification by others of like precious faith (Eph. 4:11-16).
Within that context of the local church, there will be the opportunity to receive Biblical believer's baptism (1 Cor. 1:13-16). In this text, Paul did not baptize all in the Corinthian church, but others certainly must have; the Corinthian's shortcomings did not negate the fact that they were, indeed, baptized.
www.fundamentalbiblechurc...cbaptr.htm
======================================
I am not in agreement with their Calvinistic view, but nonetheless, they seem to make good points against the Baptismal Regeneration view:
"NT Baptism and Baptismal Regeneration":
www.ntrf.org/regen.html
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Protestant Person
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Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

01 Feb 2003, 09:57 #5

"You admitted that the thief on the cross did not get baptized and that this was okay, which is why I said that well, then, one doesn't necessarily have to be baptized then, do they?"
In order to allow the exception that Christ allowed, to inductively null and void Baptism, then we would be just in saying that Baptism should be done away with...for it is unnecessary. If it is unnecessary, then we do not need it. In my mind, that is treading on very dangerous ground. Especially in light of the fact that the Messiah Himself mentioned Salvation and Baptism in the same sentence, more than once. I'll just stick with what the early Christians, the reformers, and Christ Himself said about this matter.
"The Holy Spirit is responsible for regenerating a person."
Yes. However, due to the Messiah's extraordinary emphasis on Baptism, I'll stick with what I believe. Water Baptism and Spirit Baptism are both works of the Holy Spirit. Christ spoke of them both in the same breath, so I'd say they are intwined (Mark 16:16; John 3:5).
"I've done a little bit of reading about Baptismal Regeneration. You were saying that this view does not boil down to a works-based salvation, but that is not what I'm finding."
John Wesley actually broke with the Anglican belief that the Holy Spirit enters the body at the "precise" moment of water Baptism. He said that it could happen before, during, or after water Baptism. I consider it a mystery... but if we are to talk about Biblical evidence, I'd just have to say that there are far too many verses supporting water Baptism being tied to Regeneration.
We both believe that water Baptism follows belief. However, I think if one believes, and does not react by getting water Baptized, then he/she is a charlatan.
I'm just going to go with what I believe. I think that faith and water Baptism are both works of the Spirit (as opposed to human effort), but if the latter does not follow the former, then the mystery of Regeneration has not been completed.
I'm not so sure Paul did not put much emphasis on water Baptism. I recall our previous discussion on the matter, but Peter certainly did; if Peter and Paul were of one mind, then Paul's beliefs could not have been very different than Peter's.
Acts 2:38
"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." -NIV.
Kristi, the New Testament is rife with these kinds of verses. It's not like I am taking one verse, and building a cult around it. I believe the evidence is stronger for my arguement, but I believe your argument is methodical and intelligent. I don't think you just came up with it on the spur of the moment. It's kind of like Calvinism and Arminianism. Anyone with any kind of open mind can concede that the other "camp" could be right...given certain Scriptural considerations for each of the two belief. However, most Christians still believe their personal interpretation of either freewill or predestination are correct, allowances for the other camp notwithstanding. That is how I feel about our differences on this issue: I think I'm correct, but I can see how you would arrive at your conclusion.
You said, "Baptism could maybe be viewed as symbolic of a person's death and resurrection in Christ (although one author said that the verse cited in support of this does not even mention the word 'water,' but says that we are baptized into *Christ's death*)."
Once again, you may be right. However, I study things, and since the Bible is a manual for life, I go with explanations for questions that offer the most evidence. How many times does Christ and His Apostles need to speak on this matter, before I just accept that yes, water Baptism is Spiritually tied to Regeneration? I shudder to think that people consider water Baptism to be a work of man, rather than a work of the Holy Spirit. But, I can see how you would think the way you do, from your line of reasoning. It's well thought out, but I just don't agree with it.
May Christ's love be with you,
Evan

"The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
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Protestant Person
Registered User
Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

02 Feb 2003, 06:33 #6

Kristi,
I humbly submit that the following statement is in error.
".... The additional requirements imposed by false teachers upon the sinner who is invited by God to receive Christ Jesus by faith is "another gospel "-a salvation by works- and God's curse is unequivocally pronounced upon it (Gal. 1:6-10)! The same is true for any supposed gospel preached today which adds any step to salvation by faith alone. Water baptism is a "good work," Biblically defined.
Christ spoke directly against sacrifices and rituals for salvation, while at the same time, directly speaking on the importance of water Baptism, which Peter did, too. So, one must come to the conclusion that while sacrifices for sin were mirrors of things to come, water Baptism is an act of the Holy Spirit, and in another category entirely.
Peace in Christ,
Evan"The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
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shilohproject
Registered User
Joined: 03 Feb 2003, 11:39

03 Feb 2003, 04:39 #7

I have long appreciated the delicate nature of this topic, having been born into a Baptist family. Certain very clear ideas persisted about baptism, e.g. full immersion, required "act of obedience," not allowed to infants, etc.
Today as an almost-40 y.o., I and my family are members of Memorial Drive United Methodist Church, in Houston, TX, and the understandings of biblical intentions regarding baptism are somewhat different.
I understand both sides of this argument, I think. And each of them is compelling, without downing the other. The verses originally cited about "believe and be baptized and be saved" then go on to say "but if you don't believe you'll perish." (My paraphrase.) This is a bit unclear, because the second clause clearly stresses the belief, not the baptism or the belief-baptism team.
So, reasonable people may have different understandings and still love the Lord and each other.
I am drawn to John 3.16b, which says: "whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."(NASB) This suggests to me, all other things considered, that it is our belief in/reliance on Christ which results in God's gift of salvation and regeneration.
Thanks,
-Shiloh
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Aleph Nought
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Joined: 09 Mar 2001, 14:22

04 Feb 2003, 03:06 #8

You and I are from a same backgroung. Image After my salvation I joined a Southern Baptist church, but after my marriage - my wife and I are now members of an United Methodist church.
Baptism IMHO is just an "in-house debate" with all Christians as far as the full immersion or dry cleaning / and believer's baptism or infant baptism.
But...
If anyone makes water baptism a requirement for salvation, they have just changed the Gosepel which is not a Gospel at all!
In God's Grace,
Ric
In God's Grace,

Ric
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Protestant Person
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Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

05 Feb 2003, 06:31 #9

that water Baptism is a NECESSARY FRUIT of Regeneration? What true Believer would refuse Baptism (and yes, refusal occasionally crops up, en masse, when some cultures are receptive to conversion). Regardless, can't we at least agree on my premise, which is,
WATER BAPTISM IS A NECESSARY FRUIT OF REGENERATION?
Peace in Christ,
Evan"The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
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Protestant Person
Registered User
Joined: 11 Jun 2002, 12:17

05 Feb 2003, 06:34 #10

I do believe that water washes away sins from the person that wants it to...that it is not an act of the water or the human (no more than faith in an act of the mind or of the person), but an act of the Holy Spirit. Period. Image
However, there is a UMC pdf file, on the unitedmethodistchurch.org site, that explains the UMC position on, "Of Water and Faith." I suggest that you read it, and get back to me.
Peace in Christ,
Evan"The Methodists must take heed to their doctrine, their experience, their practice, and their discipline. If they attend to their doctrines only, they will make the people antinomians; if to the experimental part of religion only, they will make them enthusiasts; if to the practical part only, they will make them Pharisees; and if they do not attend to their discipline, they will be like persons who bestow much pains in cultivating their garden, and put no fence round it, to save it from the wild boar of the forest."
-Rev. John Wesley (1783).
"I wanted a mission, and for my sins, they gave me one."



-Apocalypse Now.
Reply