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larrybr |
Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts |
Lead | |
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I know there are differences in the footnotes of the Ben Asher text, but does the text itself have significant changes from the Ben Chayyim? If so does anyone know of a few?
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Euthymius |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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In Michael Sproul's book, God's Word Preserved: A Defense of Historic Separatist Definitions and Beliefs, he cites in a footnote the data from Dr James A. Price of Tennessee Temple regarding the differences between the Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim texts.
If one disregards the mere use or non-use of vowel-letters (the matres lectionis) which do not affect meaning, the end result is only a very few places where meaning actually is different between the two types of Massoretic text. None of these affect doctrine. I don't have the book at hand, but on the internet I found what appears to be an accurate list claiming nine (9) places of difference: "The ben Chayyim and the ben Asher, differ in only nine places that would affect translation: 1 Kings 20:38; Proverbs 8:16; Isaiah 10:16; Isaiah 27:2; Isaiah 38:14; Jeremiah 34:1; Ezekiel 30:18; Zephaniah 3:15; and Malachi 1:12." www.puritanboard.com/foru...ote=155940 |
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larrybr |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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Very informative.
Thanks. |
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Euthymius |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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One more tidbit pertinent to the KJVO disparagement of the Ben Asher text as opposed to Ben Chayyim (even with only 9 translatable differences!) is the level of misleading and misdirecting propaganda that emanates from the KJVO side on this manner. Compare, for example, the declamations of D.A. Waite on this matter (from his pamphlet, "Four Reasons for Defending the King James Bible", available at various locations on the internet). Note how Waite cleverly *diverts* the discussion from the almost exact identity of both texts to the "footnotes" -- almost of all which relating to versional and manuscript readings appeared in earlier *Ben Chayyim* critical editions as well (Waite conveniently does not mention this fact!):
========================= "A. THE KING JAMES BIBLE HAS A SUPERIOR OLD TESTAMENT HEBREW TEXT "1. The Two Competing Hebrew Old Testament Texts. "There are two basic texts in existence in Hebrew, the false one, edited by Ben Asher, and the true one, edited by Ben Chayyim. The Ben Asher is exhibited in Rudolf Kittel's BIBLIA HEBRAICA (BHK) (1937) with all of his suggested footnote changes, as well as in the Stuttgart edition of BIBLIA HEBRAICA (BHS) (1967-77) with all of their suggested footnote changes. "The true text of Ben Chayyim on which our KING JAMES BIBLE is based is also available. It is called the Daniel Bomberg edition or the Second Great Rabbinic Bible (1524-25). We carry this Hebrew Bible in the BIBLE FOR TODAY ministry. It is the Letteris text, printed in 1866. It has the Masoretic Hebrew text in the center and the KING JAMES BIBLE in the margins. This Ben Chayyim Masoretic Hebrew text was the unquestioned Hebrew text for the next 400 years. Nobody questioned it. In fact, Rudolf Kittel, in his first two editions of 1906 and 1912, used that text in his BIBLIA HEBRAICA. [COMMENT: and those 1906/1912 editions also contained the same critical footnotes to which Waite now misdirects his readers, and thereby attempts to change the focus of the argument:] "It was not until 1937, that he switched Hebrew texts and substituted the spurious and inferior text which uses the Leningrad Manuscript (B19a or "L"). He used this because he claimed it was the oldest single Hebrew manuscript, dating from about 1008 A.D. "Both of these false BIBLIA HEBRAICA (BHK & BHS) Hebrew texts offer in their footnotes about fifteen to twenty suggested changes per page. [COMMENT: But surprise of surprises, so also did the 1906/1912 Ben Chayyim editions! Why does Waite not tell his readers this tidbit? But now the propaganda machine revs up magnificently:] "This adds up to about 20,000 to 30,000 changes in the entire Hebrew Old Testament text. One or the other of these false Hebrew texts, either BHK or BHS, are used as the basis for the Old Testament in virtually all modern versions, as can be shown by reading their introductory pages. How many of these changes in the Hebrew text are you ready to accept? Do you want to accept 30,000? How about 20,000? 10,000? How about 5,000? How about 1,000? How many of you would like to accept 500 changes? [COMMENT: *None* of the material displayed in the footnotes *changes* either of the base Hebrew texts, which as noted differ from each other translationally only nine (9) times! Waite's *entire* rhetoric here is nothing more than a diversionary red herring and totally irrelevant to the issue!]. "If you do not start with an absolute, where there is no doubt, you're going to continue to move and to accept more and more changes. Where can you stop, once you have begun to slide? Doubts will arise in your mind. We don't want to move from the Hebrew Old Testament on which our KING JAMES BIBLE is based. We must have an absolute." ==================== So, then....Waite declaims the Ben Asher text on the basis of its diabolical "differences" from the text of Ben Chayyim, even though these differences amount to nine (9) translatable matters, *none* of which affect doctrine! But to make his point, Waite appeals to the numerous variations cited in the *footnotes* of the BHK or BHS editions, conveniently neglecting to note that the earlier Ben Chayyim editions of 1906/1912 contained virtually the *same* body of notes regarding variant readings. Let me make this even more clear by restating Waite's argument by reference to TR editions: ================================== The TR editions of Erasmus did *not* show *any* variant readings (God be praised!); perhaps there were none at that time? (I speak as a fool). But when Stephens printed his 1550 "Textus Receptus" edition, he included (horrors!) "variant readings" taken from more than a *dozen* manuscripts (more horrors!). This was followed by Mill, who in 1707 printed a TR Greek NT that contained perhaps *30,000* variant readings in its apparatus (horrendously scandalous!). Not to be outdone, Wetstein's TR edition of 1751 contained even *more* variant readings than that! It does not matter that the basic TR *text* of those editions remained nearly identical -- in fact, most TR editions differ in regard to about 200 readings! -- the appearance of all those satanic variant readings in the apparatus makes it clear that no one can trust *any* edition beyond those of Erasmus! To paraphrase Waite: "How many of these changes in the GREEK text are you ready to accept? Do you want to accept 30,000? How about 20,000? 10,000? How about 5,000? How about 1,000? How many of you would like to accept 500 changes?" [COMMENT: No matter that in *none* of these TR editions are the *footnotes* in any way "changing" the base text: the very fact that such footnotes *exist* allows the transference to be made in exactly the same manner as Waite did in relation to the Hebrew editions]. Note to reader: *disregard* the fact that the ca. 200 differences in the text of the various TR editions *exceeds* dramatically the nine (9) differences between the Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew texts! Also, disregard the fact that even the five editions of Erasmus differ among themselves *more* than the Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew texts. Our minds are made up; don't confuse the issue with factual statistics! ===================== This should clearly make the point, and illustrate the bait-and-switch deception which is typical of even the strongest of the KJVO "defenders". |
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wildboar99 |
Jerusalem Crown Edition | ||
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From my understanding the differences between the various "Masoretic" texts are minimal and most have to do with pronunciation. There are far less variants proportionally than there is among the manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. However, if a person is searching for the purest "Masoretic" text as defined by the Masoretes, I believe the Aleppo Codex is the best candidate. Unfortunately much of it was destroyed, but there has been an attempt to reconstruct the original and it is known as the Jerusalem Crown: www.jerusalem-crown.co.il.../index.asp
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Exodus Six Verse Three |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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larrybr says:
Quote: At the link below, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon lists the number of times that "Yehovah" and "Yehovih" occur in the Masoretic Text. [In this case it is assumed they are talking about the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text] img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/BDBYahwehtrimmed.jpg The editors of the BDB Lexicon state that "Yehovah" from which "Jehovah" is derived occurs 6518 times, while "Yehovih" which is translated "GOD" in capital letters in the KJV, occurs 305 times. Note that the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text preserves two different spellings of the Tetragrammaton. The hand written Leningrad Codex of 1008-1010 A.D. preserves 6 [possibly 7] different Hebrew spellings of "YHWH". [NOTE: The Leningrad Codex is a Ben Asher Text] The Leningrad Codex preserves "Yehovah" only about 44 times according to a Hebrew Scholar who posts on b-hebrew. The Leningrad Codex preserves "Yehovih" only once according to the same Hebrew scholar who posts on b-hebrew. KJVO Christians need the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text to provide some sort of evidence that God's name is "Jehovah", even though the KJV translators only translate "Yehovah" as "JEHOVAH" four times, and translate "Yehovah" as "Jehovah-xxxx" three times. The majority of scholars believe that the Masoretes never meant for the Jewish reader to read "Yehovah" as "Yehovah". Rather the majority of scholars believe that the Masoretes placed a modified version of the vowel points of "Adonay" into YHWH [which resulted in the spelling "Yehovah"], only to indicate to the Jewish reader that he was to read "Yehovah" as "Adonay". exodus |
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Exodus Six Verse Three |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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larrybr writes:
Quote: At the link below a member of b-hebrew asks if someone could send him a JPEG image of the Leningrad Codex so that he could determine whether or not Joshua 21:36-37 were missing from the Leningrad Codex. Joshua 21:36-37 are indeed missing in the Leningrad Codex, which is a Ben Asher text. lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-October/026541.html Exodus |
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gconan |
Re: Jerusalem Crown Edition | ||
Quote: That is now known to be wrong! The Aleppo Codex In 1948 the synagogue in which the Aleppo Codex was kept was attacked and set on fire by rioters. The codex disappeared, and the Rabbis allowed the world to think that it had been destroyed in the fire. For ten years they tried to conceal the fact that the manuscript had been rescued from the fire, and that it remained in their possession. Their secret was made known to the Israeli government by informants who had witnessed the rescue of the manuscript, and a concerted campaign of pressure and persuasion was directed at them by the Israeli government, scholarly institutions, and Jewish organizations. An official letter issued in 1953 by the Sepharadic Chief Rabbi Ouziel admonished them to deliver the manuscript into the hands of Israeli officials. Finally they did give up the manuscript, or rather two-thirds of it. There has been no satisfactory account of what happened to the missing third, which includes most of the Pentateuch and some other portions. It has been reported that the missing sections were burnt, but this is doubtful, because none of the surviving sections show signs of fire damage. One missing leaf was turned over to the Jewish National Library in Jerusalem in December 1982 by a family of Jews who had moved from Aleppo to Brooklyn in the U.S.A. The Aleppo Codex |
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Euthymius |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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>Joshua 21:36-37 are indeed missing in the Leningrad Codex, which is a Ben Asher text.
Funny thing: The *same* passage is *also* missing from my 1839 Hahn edition of the Ben Chayyim text. The main text omits, signifies the omission with a *, and a in a footnote displays the "missing" text (in consonantal format only), but only at the bottom of the page. The same applies to my 1896 Letteris edition (Ben Chayyim text -- the *very* edition promoted by and sold by D. A. Waite as that which purportedly underlies the KJV!). Similarly, the passage is missing in the main text, with a similar * and a now pointed version of the "missing" text in the footnote. The same applies to my Ben Chayyim text from Hebrew Publishing Co., NY. On the other hand, my BHS and BHK editions (Ben Asher text) -- although purportedly based on the Leningrad MS -- *include* the "missing" portion in their *main* text -- albeit in smaller type. So the point is....? |
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Exodus Six Verse Three |
Re: Ben Asher and Ben Chayyim Hebrew Texts | ||
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Euthymius writes:
Quote: Exodus writes: I was not aware that the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text was missing those same verses. I thought that I was posting differences between the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text and the Leningrad Codex. Exodus |
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logos1560 |
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Concerning this second edition, Gergely Juhasz wrote: "For his edition, Bomberg relied on fourteenth and fifteenth-century manuscripts that mainly followed the Ben Asher text but also showed certain influences of the Ben Naphtali text" (Arblaster, Tyndale's, p. 94). In an introductory article to a facsimile edition of The Leningrad Codex, Victor Lebedev wrote: "It is well known that the first editions of the Hebrew Bible were based on fourteenth- to fifteenth-century manuscripts reflecting a mixture of the Ben Asher and the Ben Naphtali traditions" (Freedman, p. xxv). Page Kelley maintained that "these manuscripts [used by ben Chayyim] represented a mixture of traditions, which were further mixed in ben Chayyim's text (and Masorah)" and that "the Second Rabbinic Bible is not viewed as a pure ben Asher text" (The Masorah, p. 25). Emanuel Tov asserted that "it has been demonstrated" that the second Rabbinic Bible "does not reflect any specific manuscript" (Textual Criticism, p. 46). Tov wrote: "No single source has been found from which the editors of the first two Rabbinic Bibles could have derived their biblical text" (p. 78). In his foreword, Aron Dotan claimed: "Their desire to rely on Ben Asher's text was never more than a pious wish, for the text was only known by hearsay. All the evidence about Ben Asher's readings was second- or third-hand. It derived from masoretic remarks in biblical manuscripts, from the writings of the grammarians and Masoretes, and the lists of differences between Ben Asher and his opponent Moses ben David ben Naphtali" (Biblia, pp. viii-ix). |
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StevenAvery |
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Hi Folks, Euthymius wrote: The early Ben Hayim text actually had a margin note discussion of the textual support.
Shalom, Steven |
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logos1560 |
Joshua 21:36-37 | ||
Euthymius wrote: Concerning Joshua 21:36-37, Eliezer Katz wrote: "The two verses do not appear in Hebrew version" (New Classified Concordance, p. xxxiv). Arthur Farstad claimed that "Joshua 21:36-37 is lacking in the Masoretic text," but it was added to the KJV from the Septuagint, Vulgate, and Syriac versions (The NKJV: In the Great Tradition, p. 96). Joshua 21:36-37 are not in the standard Second Rabbinic Bible edited by Chayim, but these two verses were in the First Rabbinic Bible edited by Pratensis. Ginsburg noted that Jacob ben Chayim "decided to omit them [Joshua 21:36-37) in accordance with a certain school of Massorites" (Introduction, p. 965). Kyle McCarter observed that Joshua 21:36-37 "are entirely missing in the Leningrad Codex and other major manuscripts of MT" and that the "cause of their omission in MT was homoioteleuton: Verses 35 and 37 ended with the same sequence" (Textual Criticism, p. 41). These two verses were said to be in the other earlier printed Hebrew texts: the 1488 Soncino, the 1491-93 Naples, the 1494 Brescia, and the Complutensian Polyglot. |
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StevenAvery |
Rick Norris - "those two verses were omitted ... copying error" | ||
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Hi Folks,
Joshua 21:36-37 And out of the tribe of Reuben, Bezer with her suburbs, and Jahazah with her suburbs, Kedemoth with her suburbs, and Mephaath with her suburbs; four cities. Notice that Rick Norris has written with defacto strong support for the King James Bible reading, the inclusion of the two verses, clearly stating, accurately, that the two verses were omitted by a scribal error. (Afaik, Rick has never retracted this quote.) http://finalauthority48270.yuku.com/topic/6015 The King James Bible is Perfect Rick Norris 3/22/08 "One example of such a copying error ... the Second Rabbinic Bible did not have two verses because those two verses were omitted from a number of Hebrew manuscripts through a copying error" Amen, Rick. Well said and true. And the King James Bible corrected this copying error that had become common in the Masoretic line and was a source of textual intrigue. In fact, one could use this as an example of the King James Bible being superior to "the Hebrew" - due to the lack of clarity in the Hebrew text line, similar to Psalm 22:16. logos1560 wrote:Note also that Rick includes the Arthur Farstad quote above despite knowing that it is very false ! This was covered in the thread above: ============================================================================ Quotation - Steven Avery 8/17/08 Joshua 21 - Rick Norris disproves his own claim that the target-language text must be lesser "Farsted was simply horribly wrong, the verses were a Masoretic Text minority reading, even in the first Rabbinic Bible and more. And Farstad apparently did not even know the Ginsburg edition and the ongoing discussion. And that the verses are included in Ben Asher (BHS & BHK) texts in smaller print.. And they were in four Hebrew polyglot editions produced before 1611, including the Complutensian. And Norris is quite similarly very wrong for quoting Farsted's blunders without
correction.
=============================================== It is the probabalism mentality that would have so little disregard for truth that a totally fallacious comment would be quoted without comment and correction, even after clear correction has been made.. Shalom, Steven Avery
Last Edited By: StevenAvery
12/07/2008 04:23:55.
Edited 1 times.
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loudcry |
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Euthymius wrote:There's also a major one in 2 Samuel 11:1. BHS (Leningrad codex) reads, "...at the time of the going out of the messengers..." (vowels indicate "messengers") Ben Chayyim, and Jerusalem Crown (Aleppo codex), read, "...at the time of the going out of the kings..." (vowels indicate "kings") I found it very interesting that the Ben Chayyim text actually agrees with the Aleppo codex, vocalized and edited by Aaron ben Asher himself, and not with the Leningrad codex, copied, vocalized and edited by Samuel ben Jacob. Does anybody know why Samuel ben Jacob would change the reading from "kings" to "messengers"? Also, do we want to include differences between singular and plural variants between the two? Because there are quite a bit of them. It seems that the Ben Chayyim text and Aleppo codex have a lot in common, distinct from the Leningrad codex. Jeffrey Ho
Last Edited By: loudcry
05/19/2009 15:55:56.
Edited 1 times.
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Euthymius |
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That is not a "real" difference between Ben Chayyim and Ben Asher, since the issue is tied in with a Qeri/Kethiv reading, dependent solely on the
presence or absence of the vowel-letter Aleph in the middle of the word. Different scribes included or excluded vowel letters according to their own
proclivities, as is well known, and these Qeri/Kethiv readings are well marked in the various Hebrew manuscripts, whether of the Ben Chayyim or Ben Asher
variety.
The "real" differences already tabulated between the Ben Chayyim and Ben Asher texts are those where the reading clearly differs and where no Qeri/Kethiv appears. |
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loudcry |
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Euthymius wrote:The problem is not the aleph vowel consonant, the consonantal text, but rather a real difference in the vowel pointing in the MAIN text (if we're only concerned with what is written in the main text, which was the original poster's question). In the vowel pointing in BHS, the word is hammal'him (the messengers), while in the ben Hayyim text and ben Asher (Jerusalem Crown - Aleppo codex) it reads hammela'him (the kings). In BHS, it has a patach, while in ben Hayyim/Aleppo it has vowel shewa and qamets. The difference is in the vowel pointing, not consonant. These are two different words in the actual main text that affect doctrine. Jeffrey Ho
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Euthymius |
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Loud: The difference is in the vowel pointing, not consonant. These are two different words in the
actual main text that affect doctrine.
Not so -- the vowel pointing within a Qere/Kethib reading is automatically and deliberately "wrong", since the pointing is intentionally designed to match the marginal Qere rather than the main text Kethib. The key issue is and always was (long before the Masoretes added the vowel points in the fifth or sixth century) that the consonantal text of the Qere and Kethib do not match, and in this case "angels" depends on the middle Aleph being present (ML'KYM) while "kings" depends on the middle Aleph being absent (MLKYM). Nothing more nor less. |
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