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Books on Millenium

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Wes Cottonhort	Books on Millenium	Lead	[-]
Posts: 278 Mar 15 11 9:18 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Can anybody direct me to some good books on prophetic views other than the IFB endorsed Pre-Trib, Pre-milennial position? The books I've read so far (such as The Rapture Exposed by Barbara Rossing) are poorly written, and not helpful in explaining alternative viewpoints on the subjec.;
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77		#1	[-]
Posts: 2032 Mar 15 11 6:08 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wes Cottonhort wrote: Can anybody direct me to some good books on prophetic views other than the IFB endorsed Pre-Trib, Pre-milennial position? The books I've read so far (such as The Rapture Exposed by Barbara Rossing) are poorly written, and not helpful in explaining alternative viewpoints on the subjec.; 77: I can't help you - we Lutherans are amillennial. The buzz-kills of the End-Times crowd. Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
Decalogue	Never fear - Joe Cool is here !	#2	[-]
Posts: 169 Mar 15 11 9:18 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yes , I do ... and I will not even charge yaa a finder's fee... 1st) --- If you own or have access to a copy of "The Open Bible" , look at the Introduction to The Book of The Revelation. They have a good little definition of the different views. They do not tell you which one is correct. 2nd) --- "The Meaning of the Millennium : Four Views" published by I.V.P. isbn # 0877847946 . Edited by Clouse. Authors are : Ladd , Hoyt , Boettner , Hoekema. 3rd) --- Rose Publications has a wall chart which is really good. It is called " Four Views of the Millennium" isbn # 9901981425. They also have a "Downloadable" version which you can see at their website. http://www.rosepublications.com I like this because it shows the various ideas in front of your eyeballs and you can compare. It has Scripture references that go with each one.... { except for the "amill" ... because they have NO scripture ! ... } { btw - if you get one or any Rose wall chart(s) ...[ and they have several good ones.] I would suggest that you pay the extra 4 or 5 $ and get the laminated version. They last longer and don't rip.} There are others , but you will have to use your Bing or your Google. Look for: "Premillennialism or Amillennialism" by Charles Feinberg. Zondervan Publishing House ( Try Used Book shops , Online stores ) "Things To Come" - A Study In Biblical Eschatology" by J. Dwight Pentecost . Zondervan . He covers many points of view , not just on The Millennium , but also concerning the "Catching-away or "Catching-up" of the Church. ...Oh , and one more thing --- just because a writer or Preacher or Professor is "Pre-Trib / Pre-Mill " does NOT mean they are all goony-burgers who are sitting on the rooftop. Both Charles Feinberg ( Biola-Talbot ) , and J. Dwight Pentecost ( Dallas) are ( were) Professors at genuine Seminaries . They were not a bunch of silly-wabbits that got their stuff from C.I. Scofield. Here is a good message that is done by a Professor of the O.T. at Geneva Theological Seminary. He is a Presbyterian , and yet , he is a Premill. man. His name is Dr. Michael Barrett , and I really like his messages. Please put your cursor on the link and give him a listen. This is from the Lord's Day school session at Faith F.P.C. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1023061503 "Reasons for Prophetic Positions" Please visit www.prayerbookbaptist.com "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the word of our God shall stand for ever!" Isaiah 40:8 Last Edited By: Decalogue Mar 16 11 4:26 PM. Edited 1 times.
amarillo	from the top	#3	[-]
Posts: 4812 Mar 16 11 7:10 AM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Millennium, millennial, and all their related words are spelled with 2 Ns, not millenium or millenial. so there, got it off my chest, harrumph. Joseph Ng "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Ps 119:89 KJB
Wes Cottonhort		#4	[-]
Posts: 278 Mar 16 11 8:26 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Deca! Having grown up IFB, I've been immersed (as opposed to sprinkled) in Pre-Mil/Pre-Trib doctrine for a long time. I do have the Pentecost book, as well as stuff by LaHaye, Tom Ross, Walvoord, Jeremiah, Morris, and a couple of others. There's always been a few things that I didn't quite think jived with scripture, and I'm about to undertake a study to shore up my doctrine in that area. I've seen a bunch of those Four Views books at the bookstores near me, but haven't run across the Millennium one yet. I may have to break down and order online. The Feinberg book sounds interesting too. I do appreciate your help, and I will make good use of your info. 77 - Since you appear to be ineligible for the Rapture, since your church is not part of the true and exclusive Bride of Christ, I promise you that if we're in the same location when I hear the trumpet sound, I'll grab onto you before I start to ascend.
77		#5	[-]
Posts: 2032 Mar 16 11 2:51 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	77: I appreciate that, Wes! I think I've posted this before at some point, but here's as chart you might find useful - or maybe not. DIAGRAMS OF MILLENNIAL VIEWS __________ Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
mko		#6	[-]
Posts: 1336 Mar 16 11 4:43 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I guess I lean C or D. And unless you gave words in ordinary language, how would what you have said be understood? For you might as well be talking to air. 1 Corinthians 14.9
Decalogue		#7	[-]
Posts: 169 Mar 16 11 5:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	To Wes Cottonhort : Hello. If you have the Pentecost book , then look in the back at the Bibliography. { My edition/printing of the book has the Bib. on page #584. } He has many authors and books listed. Not all from the "Dallas Th. Sem. " viewpoint / thinking. That is a good thing when an author mentions other sources of information , rather than citing oneself as proof for his book. Make some visits to various Used Book shops in your County , and also check the Thrift shops and Library sales. He lists several , including "A-Millers". I did not mention that in my first post , as I ( me , myself ) don't like the "a-mill" position , even though my former Pastor and many , if not most , Pastors in the group are a-mill.. They may be some smart-guys in many areas , but I sure got tired of how whole sections of God's wonderful , true Bible were either glossed over or they were ignored altogether. There is also the "Post-Mill" viewpoint ( which nearly died out after WW1 ... in other words : The world is not getting better. ) , and has seen more people show some interest in it for maybe 15 -20 years now. { Often due to interest in Rushdounny and Chalcedon Movement and Theonamy.} ------ ----- ------ ------ 77 - That is a good diagram / chart you posted. Thanks. Do you recall where it can be found (webpage ? ) , or is it from a book you own ? If you don't recall , don't worry about it. Please visit www.prayerbookbaptist.com "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the word of our God shall stand for ever!" Isaiah 40:8
Euthymius		#8	[-]
Posts: 3481 Mar 16 11 7:14 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	And of course we can all see which view gets a well-deserved "A" and which view gets a "D".....
HoLogos		#9	[-]
Posts: 1491 Mar 16 11 10:44 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I am very firmly in B, the Historic Premillennialism camp, i.e., what I maintain is the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints. It is thus aptly named "historic premillennialism." Notwithstanding the ecstatic visions of Margaret Macdonald to the effect that the church is removed before the 7 year tribulation (rather than at the end thereof, as was once delivered to the saints), and then notwithstanding the promotion of that notion by John Darby. I have a book by a former MI6 (British Intelligence) agent whose research shows that John Darby was puppeted by the British East India Company (that instrument for the British royal family's massive international opium trade. India was about opium, Afghanistan was about opium, China was about opium, Burma and so on). One part of the British East India company was a "think tank" that conspired to brainwash and manipulate people and nations to their advantage. They even operated under cover of the China Inland Mission. The teaching that the people of God are removed before the tribulation, accomplishes a complacency of the believers about the perilous times that are coming. Accomplishes a neglect of girding of the mind and heart for that, and of preparatory teaching. Preparatory teaching that a good shepherd has an obligation to do for the sheep. It also accomplishes division among the ranks. And confusion. Last Edited By: HoLogos Mar 16 11 10:47 PM. Edited 1 times.
77		#10	[-]
Posts: 2032 Mar 17 11 3:08 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Euthymius wrote: And of course we can all see which view gets a well-deserved "A" and which view gets a "D"..... 77: One of the many virtues of Lutheranism is one doesn't have to put the correct view at the top of lists. Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
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Wes Cottonhort		#11	[-]
Posts: 278 Mar 17 11 2:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	77 - Definitely a useful chart. I never realized that there was a difference between historic and dispensational pre-millenialism. Of course, no such difference was ever referenced in our church. But that does explain why I've seen some writers say that The Rapture was invented less than 200 years ago, while others have traced pre-millenialism back to the first century. On a side note, it might interest you a little to know that I'm currently reading Born Fundamentalist: Reborn Catholic by David Currie. While I think he is a bit dishonest in whitewashing some very dark ages of Catholic history, he does a fantastic job differentiating true Catholic theology from what is taught in fundamentalist circles.
77		#12	[-]
Posts: 2032 Mar 17 11 4:30 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I just found that title on Amazon, Wes; I'll have a read when I get it. Thanks! Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
77		#13	[-]
Posts: 2032 Mar 17 11 4:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Of the Millennium (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.) [Adopted 1932] 42. With the Augsburg Confession (Art. XVII) we reject every type of millennialism, or Chiliasm, the opinions that Christ will return visibly to this earth a thousand years before the end of the world and establish a dominion of the Church over the world; or that before the end of the world the Church is to enjoy a season of special prosperity; or that before a general resurrection on Judgment Day a number of departed Christians or martyrs are to be raised again to reign in glory in this world; or that before the end of the world a universal conversion of the Jewish nation (of Israel according to the flesh) will take place. Over against this, Scripture clearly teaches, and we teach accordingly, that the kingdom of Christ on earth will remain under the cross until the end of the world, Act 14:22; John 16:33; 18:36; Luke 9:23; 14:27; 17:20-37; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 12:28; Luke 18:8; that the second visible coming of the Lord will be His final advent, His coming to judge the quick and the dead, Matt. 24:29, 30; 25:31; 2 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 9:26-28; that there will be but one resurrection of the dead, John 5:28; 6:39, 40; that the time of the Last Day is, and will remain, unknown, Matt. 24:42; 25:13; Mark 13:32, 37; Acts 1:7, which would not be the case if the Last Day were to come a thousand years after the beginning of a millennium; and that there will be no general conversion, a conversion en masse, of the Jewish nation, Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor. 3:14; Rom. 11:25; 1 Thess. 2:16. According to these clear passages of Scripture we reject the whole of Millennialism, since it not only contradicts Scripture, but also engenders a false conception of the kingdom of Christ, turns the hope of Christians upon earthly goals, 1 Cor. 15:19; Col. 3:2, and leads them to look upon the Bible as an obscure book. Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
Euthymius		#14	[-]
Posts: 3481 Mar 17 11 7:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Augs.Conf.: that there will be but one resurrection of the dead, John 5:28; 6:39, 40; Seriously....really....doesn't it cause a certain degree of disconnect to accept such a claim in view of the clear and unambiguous Scriptural statement of Rev. 20:5b "This is the first resurrection," particularly when stated in contrast to the equally clear statement of 20:5a, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed," then being the second resurrection and last judgment as noted in Rev. 20:11-15? Or is it noteworthy that the Augs. Conf. at this point chooses not to cite any references from the book of the Revelation as if like James, it might be a "right strawy" book? Such a blatant disconnect with plain and clear Scriptural statements is one reason why I am Baptist and neither amillennial nor creedal in my approach to interpreting Scripture. Last Edited By: Euthymius Mar 17 11 7:16 PM. Edited 1 times.
mko		#15	[-]
Posts: 1336 Mar 17 11 8:40 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	My understanding were the two resurrections were one after the other. And unless you gave words in ordinary language, how would what you have said be understood? For you might as well be talking to air. 1 Corinthians 14.9
HoLogos	Amen Euthy	#16	[-]
Posts: 1491 Mar 17 11 8:57 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yup, it requires a disconnect from scripture to be anything but pre-millennial.
HoLogos	Cotton	#17	[-]
Posts: 1491 Mar 17 11 9:00 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	W. Cotton wrote: << 77 - Definitely a useful chart. I never realized that there was a difference between historic and dispensational pre-millenialism. Of course, no such difference was ever referenced in our church. But that does explain why I've seen some writers say that The Rapture was invented less than 200 years ago, while others have traced pre-millenialism back to the first century.>> Not correct. The rapture was not invented 200 years ago, but only specifically the "pre-trib rapture" was invented like 140 years ago, by Margaret MacDonald. I believe in the "rapture" that is, the "catching up" of the believers, but I believe it is at the end of the 7 year tribulation. This is what the scriptures clearly teach, and I could convince a chimpanzee of this if he would give me the ear, and provided that chimp believes in the scriptures as the authority.
HoLogos	Disconnect again	#18	[-]
Posts: 1491 Mar 17 11 9:52 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Speaking of disconnect from scripture, how can anyone maintain that the rapture is before the tribulation when we have clear scriptures like II Thessalonians 2:1-4: ¹ Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, ² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. ³ Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ⁴ He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. This says "our being gathered to him...will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed" - i.e. at least the middle of the tribulation. There are only two resurrections: one for the righteous of all ages, and one for the unrighteous of all ages. Darby erroneously introduced a new doctrine, that the righteous of the "church age" will be resurrected separately, 7 years before, the righteous of the Old Testament. This is demonstrably false. Revelation says there are only two resurrections, as Euthy already pointed out. Jesus taught the same thing. Matthew 24:29-31 29And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its glow, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the forces of the heavens will be shaken. 30And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and at that time, all the tribes of the earth will wail, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with great power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of sky to the other. We see above that the elect are gathered "immediately after the tribulation of those days" etc. Mark 13:24-27: 24"But in those days, after that suffering, " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the forces in space will be shaken.' 26"And at that time they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds, with great power and glory. 27And at that time he will send forth the angels, and they will gather together his elect out of the four winds, from the farthest points of the earth to the farthest points of the horizon. This gathering of his elect out of the four winds and the farthest points of the earth, is the "rapture," and it is clearly AFTER the tribulation. But some like to quote 1 Thessalonians 4 about us "meeting the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." As if this shows pre-tribulation rapture. It does nothing of the sort, because it does not say WHEN that happens. But it doesn't need to. We know Paul says "And this we say by the word of the Lord" that is, from the afore-quoted words of the Lord from Matthew and Mark, that it is after the tribulation. But they say, "It says we will be with the Lord." Yes, and the Lord will be on the earth. We meet rendezvous with him in the air, just like the virgins did with their lamps. We don't go back to his home, but join him in the middle of his trip to the wedding, which is in the New Jerusalem, on the earth. We meet him halfway and then he continues on his journey to earth. The fact that the catching up of the believers is after the tribulation and before the Milennium is as clear a doctrine as any other doctrine in scripture. Last Edited By: HoLogos Mar 17 11 9:58 PM. Edited 1 times.
Euthymius		#19	[-]
Posts: 3481 Mar 18 11 10:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	HoLo: The rapture was not invented 200 years ago, but only specifically the "pre-trib rapture" was invented like 140 years ago, by Margaret MacDonald....how can anyone maintain that the rapture is before the tribulation when we have clear scriptures like II Thessalonians 2:1-4. Actually, what is apparently the earliest mention of a pre-tribulation rapture is found in Ps-Ephraem Syrus (ca. 7th century): "For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come; they are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Cited in Paul Julius Alexander and Dorothy de F. Abrahamse, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), p.210. The Latin form of tihs passage appears in footnote 85 on the same page. http://books.google.com/b...t%20of%20god&f=false http://en.wikipedia.org/w...alypse_of_Pseudo-Ephraem
Armchair Scholar		#20	[-]
Posts: 2913 Mar 18 11 7:56 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm just curious how Satan is bound right now if we are already in the millennial period. Could an amillennial person please explain that? Thanks! I mean, if he's bound right now, with all the rampant Satanic evil in the world, I'd hate to see what he's like when he isn't bound. Jude 10: "But what things they don't understand, they denigrate; and things they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."
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Books on Millenium

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DIAGRAMS OF MILLENNIAL VIEWS __________

DIAGRAMS OF
MILLENNIAL VIEWS
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