'The Voice' NT

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BrianT	'The Voice' NT	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1989 (10/19/2009 11:03:11) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Thomas Nelson Publishing and the Ecclesia Bible Society have a new NT out. You can download the Gospel of John at http://www.hearthevoice.com/pdf/Book_of_John.pdf It is quite loose and neither "translation" nor "paraphrase" seem like the right term for it. I'm not sure what I think of it. Here's a small sample: John 1:1 "Before time itself was measured, the Voice was speaking. The Voice was and is God." John 1:28 is moved to after verse 19 "to retain the continuity of events". John 3:16-17 "For God expressed His love for the world in this way: He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will not face everlasting destruction, but will have everlasting life. Here's the point. God didn't send His Son into the world to judge it; instead, He is here to rescue a world headed toward certain destruction." John 14:2 "My Father's home is designed to accommodate all of you. If there were not room for everyone, I would have told you that. I am going to make arrangements for your arrival." Brian
kiwiray		#1	[-]
Posts: 116 (10/19/2009 11:17:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hmm, vaguely reminiscent of Alan Dale's, 'New World' paraphrase (except it did not include John's Gospel), here is Jesus speaking in Luke: God's Spirit is in my heart; he has called me to do my great work. This is what I have to do -- give the Good News to the poor; tell prisoners that they are prisoners no longer. and blind people that they can see; set conquered people free, and tell everyone God's Great Day has come. I do like their translation of John 1:1. "And, behold, I tell you these things that you may learn wisdom; that you may learn that when you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God". (Mosiah ch1.49 - RLDS version) Last Edited By: kiwiray 10/19/2009 11:24:00. Edited 1 times.
amarillo		#2	[-]
Posts: 3505 (10/19/2009 12:02:47) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	kiwiray wrote: I do like their translation of John 1:1. and thus it reads: 1Before time itself was measured, the Voice was speaking. The Voice was and is God. 2This celestial Voice remained ever present with the Creator; 3His speech shaped the entire cosmos. Immersed in the practice of creating, all things that exist were birthed in Him. 4His breath filled all things with a living, breathing light. 5Light that thrives in the depths of darkness, blazing through murky bottoms. ... i'm not sure if i "like" the phrasing, but it definitely defamiliarizes the text (forcing me to look more closely), calls the Logos the Voice (which may not be any better than the Message), n affirms the deity of that Voice. KJBOs might be overjoyed to learn that Jesus' deity is NOT affirmed with the Alexandrian "corruptions" at 1:18: 18God, unseen until now, is revealed in the Voice, God's only Son, straight from the Father's heart. i dunno, maybe it's just me, but the foreignness of the phraseology seems to be a little weird n flowery (unlike The Message's, which goes for the colloquial). for some reason, the word "gnostic" comes to mind (shudder). Joseph Ng "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Ps 119:89 KJB
Gary O 1		#3	[-]
Posts: 29 (10/19/2009 16:59:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have to agree with amarillo on the "gnostic" feel/sound of this Thomas Nelson NT. Having downloaded and read a few select portions of that gospel of John it definitely doesn't suit me at all. And this excerpt from the preface doesn't earn them any brownie points with me: Four key words describe the vision of this project: • holistic // considers heart, soul, and mind • beautiful // achieves literary and artistic excellence • sensitive // respects cultural shifts and the need for accuracy • balanced // includes theologically diverse writers and scholars Yeah, those are 4 really important points in translation [insert eye roll here]. Gary ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
amarillo		#4	[-]
Posts: 3509 (10/19/2009 17:07:10) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Gary O 1 wrote: I have to agree with amarillo on the "gnostic" feel/sound of this Thomas Nelson NT. Having downloaded and read a few select portions of that gospel of John it definitely doesn't suit me at all. couple more terms that spring to mind--New Age n Aquarian. And this excerpt from the preface doesn't earn them any brownie points with me: Four key words describe the vision of this project: • holistic // considers heart, soul, and mind • beautiful // achieves literary and artistic excellence • sensitive // respects cultural shifts and the need for accuracy • balanced // includes theologically diverse writers and scholars Yeah, those are 4 really important points in translation [insert eye roll here]. well, numbers 2 and 4 are not new; they're reminiscent of arguments for traditional literature n Bible translations. Joseph Ng "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Ps 119:89 KJB
Gary O 1		#5	[-]
Posts: 30 (10/19/2009 17:56:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yeah, I have no problem with literary excellence and theoretically every version should at least strive for theological diversity (or better yet strive for a lack of specific, denominational, doctrinal biases). But to use those 4 words and say they are the key four in translational ideals doesn't exactly inspire me with good thoughts about the work. Love how Jesus tells Pilate He has "come into the cosmos, to demonstrate the power of truth." Oy vey. And I'm definitely not fond of this translation's version of John 14:6(a) - "I am the path, the truth, and the energy of life." Ugh... Definitely very gnostic. I can't believe Thomas Nelson would get behind something like this. Gary ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
Euthymius		#6	[-]
Posts: 2163 (10/19/2009 19:34:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	GaryO: Definitely very gnostic. I can't believe Thomas Nelson would get behind something like this. Given Nelson Co.'s track record in publishing everything from the NKJV and other evangelical translations in numerous special interest editions to the Roman Catholic New American Bible, I can easily believe they would jump on the marketing bandwagon for this piece of work.....so long as Gno$tic has the $ in the middle....
gconan		#7	[-]
Posts: 1088 (10/19/2009 19:58:47) Registered User Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Euthymius wrote: Given Nelson Co.'s track record in publishing everything from the NKJV and other evangelical translations in numerous special interest editions to the Roman Catholic New American Bible, I can easily believe they would jump on the marketing bandwagon for this piece of work.....so long as Gno$tic has the $ in the middle.... Indeed! If it will $sell$ they are all for it, no matter how lousy a "paraphrase" it is.
SAWBONES		#8	[-]
Posts: 340 (10/19/2009 21:24:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	New Age influenced, IMHO. "Defamiliarizing" it is indeed, but also barely even recognizable as the scripture it represents in places. It's versions like this that reinforce my preference for a "literal" translation philosophy! To each his own.
Gary O 1		#9	[-]
Posts: 31 (10/20/2009 05:46:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You guys are undoubtedly right. It's a shame that it's come to this where a company is more concerned with the $$$ than they are with integrity, especially integrity in the presentation, translation, and production of Bibles. Pathetic. I'm with you all the way, Sawbones. It's this type of silliness that reminds me why I strongly prefer a literal approach to anything approaching a paraphrase. Gary ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
BrianT		#10	[-]
Posts: 1990 (10/20/2009 06:57:11) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I don't know if I'd say it was "gnostic", at least not without knowing the doctrinal positions and intent of the translators involved. But I do think this NT is sounding odd and loose for reasons that don't seem justified other than to be different for the sake of being different. Brian
Gary O 1		#11	[-]
Posts: 32 (10/20/2009 07:11:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Just so I'm not misunderstood (and I can't speak for anyone else), I think it sounds gnostic - not necessarily that it is actually gnostic. It's some of the language that is used that just gives it a gnostic feel to me. I have no idea if any of the translators would even slightly lean in that direction. But the choice of wording sounds weird, in a gnostic sort of way, to my ears. Gary ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
kiwiray		#12	[-]
Posts: 117 (10/20/2009 10:53:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I found that Alan Dale did translate John 1 and so I'll add it here just to (hopefully) keep the discussion going. At the beginning of all things -- the Word. God and the Word, God himself. At the beginning of all things, the Word and God. "And, behold, I tell you these things that you may learn wisdom; that you may learn that when you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God". (Mosiah ch1.49 - RLDS version)
Decalogue	Danger-Caution Lights Flashing!	#13	[-]
Posts: 55 (10/20/2009 16:20:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	BrianT wrote: Thomas Nelson Publishing and the Ecclesia Bible Society have a new NT out. You can download the Gospel of John at http://www.hearthevoice.com/pdf/Book_of_John.pdf It is quite loose and neither "translation" nor "paraphrase" seem like the right term for it. I'm not sure what I think of it. Here's a small sample: John 1:1 "Before time itself was measured, the Voice was speaking. The Voice was and is God." John 1:28 is moved to after verse 19 "to retain the continuity of events". John 3:16-17 "For God expressed His love for the world in this way: He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will not face everlasting destruction, but will have everlasting life. Here's the point. God didn't send His Son into the world to judge it; instead, He is here to rescue a world headed toward certain destruction." John 14:2 "My Father's home is designed to accommodate all of you. If there were not room for everyone, I would have told you that. I am going to make arrangements for your arrival." Hello Brian T. --- This looks/reads/sounds ssooooo bad that it makes the 1971 "Living Bible" from Tyndale Press look acceptable in comparison... uugghh! I read the comments of the others, but it seems to me ( from the verses that you posted) that this is an exxxtreeeeme arminian, almost universalist, paraphrase. I just Googled - Ecclesia Bible Society- and the first thing that pops up is "zoecarnate..." ?!? You and the other folks here may wish to check it out... but it seems to me that it is a group of musician-types /anything-goes /loosy-goosey / seeker-sensitve stuff. ...tis sad that Thomas Nelson ( I think the US's oldest Bible Publisher) would partner with this bunch. Please visit www.prayerbookbaptist.com "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the word of our God shall stand for ever!" Isaiah 40:8
Gary O 1		#14	[-]
Posts: 33 (10/20/2009 17:53:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Decalogue wrote: Hello Brian T. --- This looks/reads/sounds ssooooo bad that it makes the 1971 "Living Bible" from Tyndale Press look acceptable in comparison... uugghh! I read the comments of the others, but it seems to me ( from the verses that you posted) that this is an exxxtreeeeme arminian, almost universalist, paraphrase. I completely agree with your first paragraph. This version does make the LB look like a close relative of the NASB or ESV by comparison. It's that bad! Interesting comparison in your second paragraph. I've never thought of Arminianism and Universalism as the same thing, although I guess any doctrine taken too far can be twisted into great perversions of the truth. I'd like to hear what you read that made you think Arminian as opposed to maybe gnostic, New Age, or something along those lines. Gary ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
Decalogue	John 14:6	#15	[-]
Posts: 56 (10/21/2009 04:48:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello Gary. My comment about it reading ( to my eyes anyhow ) as extreme arminian or even universalist was after I read the rendition of John 3: 16-17 and John 14: 2. Scripture must be compared with other scripture... (thankfully there was a diligent man named Strong who did a monumental task listing verses.) ... and The Lord Jesus also said many other things including a very eye-opening passage about sheep and goats and judgement. Matthew 25: 31-46, and there are other verses such as Matt. 7:14 (Narrow gate) , and John 7:34... these are not "happy" verses and they rarely get mentioned...(at least I sure haven't heard them quoted much or used in "outreach programs".) John 14:6 - Can I get an Amen! ? I read a couple of your other posts ( I think it was you ?) about some of the "sloppy-agape" places that are springing up across the landscape. It is dangerous and I dare say near devilish to monkey around with the written word of our God. I'm sure you and anyone who is disciple/follower of Christ would agree. I should add that I was NOT saying that all arminians are heading to universalism... but, It seems to me some people get sooo busy being "nice",,, they have completly watered down the gospel message until e v e r y b o d y gets to go to heaven and live happily ever after... Matthew 25: 31-46 would not agree with that. Please visit www.prayerbookbaptist.com "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the word of our God shall stand for ever!" Isaiah 40:8 Last Edited By: Decalogue 10/21/2009 05:01:16. Edited 1 times.
Gary O 1		#16	[-]
Posts: 34 (10/21/2009 06:17:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	OK. Thanks for the clarification. It's just that guys like John Wesley were Arminian, but he certainly wasn't a Universalist by any means. So I wasn't making the connection you were getting at. But yeah, the version in question definitely takes many liberties and I agree it reads somewhat "universalist" in spots. And no, that's not a good thing at all. Gary ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
77		#17	[-]
Posts: 954 (10/21/2009 06:41:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	77: Just Google "Ecclesia Bible Society and have a looksie. I have highlighted some of the most flamingly New Agey statements, but there are no doubt more. Thomas Nelson Goes Forward with "The Voice" - A "Bible" Project by Emergents "According to a February 11th article in Christianity Today, "New Bible Project for Young Generation Launched", Thomas Nelson's 2006 'Bible' project called The Voice is going full speed ahead. ... "Unfortunately, the project turns out to be an emerging church creation, thus the foundation of it is marred from the beginning.... Some of the emergent leaders involved in the project are Chris Seay (project founder), Brian McLaren, Lauren Winner, Leonard Sweet.... In last year's press release by Thomas Nelson, Erwin McManus was also listed.... "Chris Seay, the founder of The Voice, is pastor of Ecclesia Church in Houston, Texas. A mission statement on the website illustrates the theology of the emerging church: "We reject unfounded categories that divide the world into uniquely sacred or purely secular. God is redeeming all of creation through Jesus. "We believe that the church exists for the world and not for herself -- she is to introduce and usher in the Kingdom of God into every part of this world." "Saying that all of creation (e.g., all humanity) is redeemed is in direct opposition of the teachings of Jesus who said 'strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it' (Matthew 7:14). And the belief that the church will usher in the Kingdom of God as opposed to Jesus Christ ushering it in with his literal return to the earth is indicative of the contemplative/emerging mindset. (It is also classic dominionism.) "The contemplative affinities of the contributors of The Voice will assure that mysticism will be an integral part of this project. This new version of the Bible has the potential to lead thousands, and possibly millions, of young people away from the words of Jesus Christ who said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. (John 10: 1-4)" From Christianity Today (by Kevin Donovan, 2-11-07) New Bible Project for Young Generation Launched "US Christian book publishers, Thomas Nelson Inc/Nelson Bibles, has launched new project The Voice after a recent found that younger, non-traditional Christians exploring their spirituality through modern means like technology and music. The project is a first-of-its kind re-telling of the Bible that consists of creative voices from historians to poets, storytellers to songwriters. 20 million Americans are finding an alternative to the traditional church.... "The Voice line targets people who are searching for new ways to explore the Bible, or who are seeking to read it for the first time. [Note: That first time" will lay the foundation in their minds, and if they lay a distorted foundation, later readings in other Bibles are likely to build on that "alternative" foundation] "The project, is comprised of a series of books, musical CD releases, original artwork and a unique, interactive website (www.hearthevoice.com) featuring a special function for the reader to personalise the page view to meet their needs.... "Featured writers, scholars, artists and musicians for The Voice include established names in the emerging church such as president of the Ecclesia Bible Society... Chris Seay (project founder); internationally renowned speaker and author of over ten highly acclaimed books - Brian McLaren; New York Times best selling Blue Like Jazz author, Donald Miller... theologian, author, and futurist - Leonard Sweet..." From Hear the Voice Hear the Voice "I have invited the most gifted writers, scholars, artists, musicians, and filmmakers that I know to devote their talents to re-telling the biblical narrative in a way that revives the drama, poetry, and humanity that is unique to the Bible. I am convinced that 'The Voice' will be a gift to the church and that you will experience the scriptures in new ways." A New retelling "One way to describe this approach is to say that it is a 'soul translation,' not just a 'mind translation.' But 'translation' is not the right word. It is really the retelling of the story. The 'retelling' involves translation and paraphrase, but mostly entering into the story of the Scriptures and recreating the event for our culture and time. It celebrates the role of scholars, but it also values the role of writers, poets, songwriters, and artists. Instead of a translation born strictly of academia, teams of scholars partner with a writer to blend the mood and voice of the original author with an accurate rendering of words of the text in English." A Faithful team for a sacred project "We have taken care that The Voice is faithful and that it avoids prejudice. [What does that mean in this context?] ...while we do not pretend to be purely objective, we asked our teams to seek to be as faithful as possible to the biblical message as they understood it together. [Consensus through dialogue?] In addition, as we partnered biblical scholars [liberal or orthodox?] and theologians with our writers, we intentionally built teams that did not share any single theological tradition. Their diversity has helped each of them not to be trapped within his or her own individual preconceptions, resulting in a faithful [?] and fresh rendering of the Bible." A Final Word "...we now are grappling with the appearance of a new cultural ethos often called postmodern.... The Voice appears at the point of impact where the modern church, with its tradition and stability, collides with the developing church of the future. This is our effort to help work through these changes and to focus attention on God's word to us. ... The Voice is the product of a community of believers seeking to bring alive the story of the Bible. ... Together we all are weaving together our talents to retell the story." Note: It is God's Spirit, not our talents and wisdom, that will reveal His Truth and make it alive in our hearts. "Re-telling" His Word may make it more popular among believers and unbelievers, but it opens the door to increasing distortions and apostasy, and it fills churches with people who seek positive affirmations and spiritual thrills, not those who are willing to suffer with Jesus and follow His "narrow" and "difficult" way. "I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. "However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.... Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. ... But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:1-14 "...if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ." Galatians 1:9-10 "For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it!" 2 Corinthians 11:4 [I.e. don't tolerate* heresy]* "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." Deuteronomy 12:32 Home \| Index \| The Secret: A New Era for Humankind "Truly, good Christian reader, we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one of a good one ... but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principle good one, not justly to be expected against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark."
77		#18	[-]
Posts: 956 (10/21/2009 08:41:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	77: McKaine is the resident expert on this board on all things emergent. Where are you? "Truly, good Christian reader, we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one of a good one ... but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principle good one, not justly to be expected against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark."
Decalogue	Ooops...	#19	[-]
Posts: 57 (10/21/2009 15:32:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I made a boo-boo folks. I said thought "Gary" was the guy, but "77" correctly pointed out it was actually "Mkane" who has been warning about this new bacteria ... ----- -------- ---------- ------------ ----------- -------- --------- ------ Hi Gary. Not to go off on a rabbit trail away from the Thread about the "Voice", but rest assured that in my mind John and Charles Wesley were fine examples of Christian men. They and their compadre George Whitefield formed "The Holy Club" at Oxford in the 1700's. The Wesley brothers' hymns are excellent--- those men read their Bible and knew the Lord! The bros became arminian ...but they would never break bread with the wackos from this "Voice" group... IMO. { I've read about 3 or 4 Bios of the Wesleys - Good stuff!} ------ -------- -------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ---- ------- -------- Hello 77. Good catch guy! This thing does not pass the "smell test" if ya know what I mean ... !?! I'm sure Herr Luder would have a thought or two about this bunch...! Someone smarter than me said a phrase which I've memorized and it nails things on the head: " If it's new, it's not true,,, and if it's true, it's not new!" Not a Bible verse, but I'll give it an Amen! Please visit www.prayerbookbaptist.com "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the word of our God shall stand for ever!" Isaiah 40:8
mko		#20	[-]
Posts: 738 (10/21/2009 15:49:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am of Wesleyan persuasion so I guess you could call me the A-word...wouldn't call myself a universalist "everyone gets to heaven eventually" type though. "Things don't happen together by coincidence, without the hand of God guiding them. Like, say, your ex-girlfriend hunting you down for a date the minute you give up on love, with an eye on the altar."

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