Hort and Universal Heresy

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Armchair Scholar	Hort and Universal Heresy	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1179 (09/10/2009 16:50:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : riplinger, false, hort, accusation I'm not sure if this post is ok here or should be in the W & H section. I'm including it here since it also has to do with GAR. I am in the process of working on comparing supposed quotes of W & H from NABV and placing GAR's quotes alongside what these two men actually said. Believe it or not, I actually find this relaxing. Don't ask why; I don't know, but defending the truth is somewhat calming. Anyway, GAR in a quote is accusing Hort of being the gravest of heretics and quotes him as believing that Christ's bearing our sins is an almost universal heresy [cough, cough]. That's a whopper. Of course, it isn't true. She cites pg. 430 of The Life and Letters of Hort as the source for this amazing insight. Would some of you be willing to read this part (it's found in a letter he wrote to Westcott) in the book online and share what you believe Hort is saying? I will compare it with what I have and see if your thoughts are my thoughts before I proceed documenting my findings. Here is the link (enter 430 in the pg. number field): http://books.google.com/b...d=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false Thank you! Last Edited By: Armchair Scholar 09/10/2009 16:54:08. Edited 2 times.
Scott McClare		#1	[-]
Posts: 3225 (09/10/2009 17:16:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I tried your link, but I wasn't able to access any preview of that book. Is there any alternative way of accessing the page you want - say, a search term that would bring us directly there? Too bad it's Vol. 1 - I downloaded vol. 2 of the same work from Google and have it offline. If there's a full, downloadable copy of vol. 1 in Google Books, I'd love to get my hands on it! Take care, Scott Ottawa, Ontario, Canada The Crusty Curmudgeon On Twitter: RansomOttawa Last Edited By: Scott McClare 09/10/2009 17:19:27. Edited 1 times.
Armchair Scholar		#2	[-]
Posts: 1182 (09/10/2009 18:08:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Here is a link to Vol 1 at Archive: http://www.archive.org/de...ifeandlettersf02hortgoog I don't think it has OCR, tho. The letter to Westcott from Hort which GAR is misquoating is on p. 430 in Vol. 1. A search term would be "universal heresy." Last Edited By: Armchair Scholar 09/10/2009 18:13:46. Edited 2 times.
BrianT		#3	[-]
Posts: 1968 (09/10/2009 18:42:51) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hort's words here are somewhat difficult to follow, since there's obviously context (the letter from Westcott) that we are not seeing here. Some of the letter sent to Hort from Westcott can be seen in Life and Letters of Westcott, Vol 1, pp. 239-240, which will help a bit with context (see http://westcotthort.com/bookshelf.html for text-searable pdfs of all the Life and Letters volumes for both W & H). But basically Hort is NOT saying that Christ's bearing our sins is heresy, but that some unidentified (at least in these two partial letters) "modern limiting" of Christ's atonement is part of the heresy Hort is referring to. Brian
Scott McClare		#4	[-]
Posts: 3226 (09/10/2009 19:14:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks AS. Man, Google (and the Internet Archive) makes it amazingly difficult to download that PDF . . . I tend to agree with Brian's assessment, above. Without more than the couple of excerpts from these two letters, though, it's all but impossible to ascertain what, specifically, they are referring to. What is "the popular doctrine of substitution" - is it a penal substitutino theory of the atonement, or substitution in some other sense? And what's the "almost universal heresy" of which this is supposedly a part? If someone is attempting to pin heresy on Westcott and Hort for denying the substitution, I'd say that person was guilty of committing the argument from silence. Take care, Scott Ottawa, Ontario, Canada The Crusty Curmudgeon On Twitter: RansomOttawa
BrianT		#5	[-]
Posts: 1969 (09/10/2009 19:23:55) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Just for reference, on the archive.org site, look for the "All Files: HTTP" link right under the main download links. The main download links sometimes take you to Google Books (which are often restricted outside of the US), but under the "All Files: HTTP" link you can download archive.org's copy of the book from Google Books, even from outside the US. Handy work-around for when you find a book on Google Books that Google won't let us Canadians download. Brian
amarillo		#6	[-]
Posts: 3402 (09/10/2009 20:11:43) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Scott McClare wrote: If someone is attempting to pin heresy on Westcott and Hort for denying the substitution, I'd say that person was guilty of committing the argument from silence. googling around, i found this book talking about Absolute Union n stuff--way over my head--propounded by one Nicholas of Cusa, a 15th-century guru: the author defends Nicolas in the section that starts on p. 64, and the term Absolute Union appears on p. 66 (alternate link here). and if we're gonna get mad with Hort's agreement with Westcott's apparent denial of Absolute Union purely on a terminological level (since we're unable to define it yet with any useful clarity), we might as well get mad with Ray Stedman here, where he also denies that term, albeit perhaps a little differently meant. while it's possible that WH believed erroneously, as KJBOs insist rather loudly, it has to be said again that the likelihood of theological errors passing into the text via editorial/translational bias is minute. so why the mountain of a molehill? same ole same ole! Joseph Ng "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Ps 119:89 KJB Last Edited By: amarillo 09/10/2009 20:24:55. Edited 2 times.
Scott McClare		#7	[-]
Posts: 3227 (09/10/2009 21:38:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The main download links sometimes take you to Google Books (which are often restricted outside of the US), but under the "All Files: HTTP" link you can download archive.org's copy of the book from Google Books, even from outside the US. Which I eventually figured out, after not liking the format of the plain text nor finding another easy way to download the DjVu version (which links to an online reader, not the file itself). Thanks. Take care, Scott Ottawa, Ontario, Canada The Crusty Curmudgeon On Twitter: RansomOttawa
FJAHort		#8	[-]
Posts: 20 (09/11/2009 00:05:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The books can be easily downloaded here: http://www.westcotthort.com/bookshelf.html A great service btw. "Seven times a day Satan tempts me to acquiesce in Westcott's short and easy method with the scribes, and print the New Testament on the model of a school Xenophon. But I resist him ..." (to VanSittart, 1864)
kiwiray		#9	[-]
Posts: 99 (09/11/2009 00:14:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Certainly nothing can be more unscriptural than the modern limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His death ; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy. Seems perfectly obvious to me. "And, behold, I tell you these things that you may learn wisdom; that you may learn that when you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God". (Mosiah ch1.49 - RLDS version)
Armchair Scholar		#10	[-]
Posts: 1183 (09/11/2009 05:10:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks, Guys!! You saw in Hort's words what I did. I wanted to be sure I was getting the right point from it and I was. It helps to have other eyes take a look. Amarillo, thank you for finding the book talking about the Absolute Union stuff. That will help shed more light on what Hort was talking about and I will reference that in my refutation document.
amarillo		#11	[-]
Posts: 3404 (09/11/2009 08:06:55) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	u're most welcome, Armie. glad u got more outta that book than i did! Joseph Ng "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Ps 119:89 KJB
Euthymius		#12	[-]
Posts: 2042 (09/11/2009 08:29:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Perhaps contrary to the way everyone else seems to be reading and/or justifying both Westcott and Hort (why, I wonder?), I read this and other passages quite in the natural sense by which they should be taken. There is no question that both Westcott and Hort were theological liberals, associated with the (dangerous) Broad Church party within Anglicanism, and this liberalism (including denying or questioning various doctrines that would ordinarily be maintained by the more conservative party within Anglicanism as well as modern conservative Christianity) does amount to some very problematic doctrinal views which easily could and would be regarded as heretical among today's conservative/evangelical scholars. No reason to deny this aspect at all. This does not, however, grant sanction to GAR or other KJVOs to utterly misinterpret various other comments of Westcott or Hort, particularly taking such wholly out of context or using ellipses to make them say what they did not say. Bottom line to the present quotation: I have no doubt whatever that Hort rejected the concept of vicarious substitutionary atonement (assuming that is what everyone is getting at).
Gary O 1		#13	[-]
Posts: 21 (09/11/2009 11:07:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yeah, I think I have to side with Euthymius on this one. It's hard for me to defend W&H when it comes to conservative orthodoxy. But, as it pertains to the GAR quote (misquote) I have to admit the reference I read online does NOT say what she's telling her readers it says. The biggest problem, as has been pointed out already, is that we don't have enough context to know exactly what Hort is getting at. I could read the original quote from his letter and either see something very benign or something very cancerous in his comments. Without full context it's difficult to know for sure. ----- "Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
Armchair Scholar		#14	[-]
Posts: 1185 (09/11/2009 18:33:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Both W & H are hard to read. People were so much more wordy back then and eloquent. At times it seems they are supporting things that are correct and then at other times I can't tell. Yes, the missing context part makes it even harder. But even as liberal as they perhaps were, GAR makes them come across as absolutely horrid. On p. 234 of NABV, she quotes Hort: "There is no direct reference to the idea of purchase or ransom...or to the idea of sacrificial atonement...[The] lamb without blemish [is] the passover lamb and not the lamb of God." Parts of this quote don't seem to even exist--certainly not in the sources she cites for them. And the parts that do exist--or at least some of the words--are not at all connected or how he said them. It's just absolutely ridiculous that she has taken these two men and made them more liberal and extreme than they already were. THe bottom line, though, is that they did not negatively influence the 1881 revised, right? Hort wrote The Way, the Truth, the Life. I downloaded it but have not looked at it yet. Have any of you read it? Is it quite liberal?
kiwiray		#15	[-]
Posts: 100 (09/11/2009 21:51:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You are certainly entitled to your opinion Euthymius but I disagree. The Broad church is / was many things but 'dangerous?', I think not. "And, behold, I tell you these things that you may learn wisdom; that you may learn that when you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God". (Mosiah ch1.49 - RLDS version)
Euthymius		#16	[-]
Posts: 2050 (09/12/2009 09:03:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Kiwi: The Broad church is / was many things but 'dangerous?', I think not. One could replace the term with "overly-ecumenical", "doctrinally compromising", "weakening key Biblical theological emphases", or other similar terms. Given the 19th century reaction from the conservative wing of Anglicanism (not even considering the hostile comments from those on the outside) to the infamous Broad Church partisan volume, Essays and Reviews (with clear charges of heresy being raised in the process), I don't think "dangerous" is too strong a term in that context. I also stand by my contention that this movement (of which Westcott and Hort were a part) did encompass various "problematic doctrinal views which easily could and would be regarded as heretical among today's conservative/evangelical scholars."
Armchair Scholar		#17	[-]
Posts: 1190 (09/12/2009 10:10:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I searched for Essays and Reviews at Archive.org but there are several, by different authors. Which one are you referring to? Is it available at Google or Archive? I'd like to take a look at it.
Euthymius		#18	[-]
Posts: 2053 (09/12/2009 10:50:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Essays and Reviews (1860). A collection of essays by seven Anglican authors who believed in the necessity of free inquiry in religious matters. The liberalism of the book was denounced by S. Wilberforce; it was condemned by a meeting of bishops in 1861 and synodically condemned in 1864. <http://www.encyclopedia.c...ssaysandReviews.html> --------------- Essays and Reviews is available in its third edition on Internet Archive, <http://www.archive.org/st...oog#page/n7/mode/1up> So also on the Internet Archive are at least the following response volumes (which alone indicate the level of controversy generated by that book); URLs not included to save space: Replies to "Essays and Reviews" (1862). Goulburn, Edward Meyrick, 1818-1897 et al. Faith and peace : being some answers to some of the "Essays and reviews," by the following writers (1862)... Twelve discourses on the Essays and reviews by seven clergymen of Oxford (1862). Jonathan Bailey. The whole counsel of God, or, The duty of the clergy as teachers of the people : with particular reference to the recent judgement in the case of "essays and reviews" : a sermon preached in the Abbey Church of St. Mary, Sherbourne, on the Second Sunday in Lent, Feb. 21, 1864 : at the general ordination of the Lord Bishop of Salisbury (Volume Talbot Collection of British Pamphlets) - Liddon, Henry Parry, 1829-1890 Inspiration and interpretation : seven sermons preached before the University of Oxford : with preliminary remarks : being an answer to a volume entitled "Essays and Reviews" - Burgon, John William, 1813-1888 Popular lectures on 'The essays and reviews' : delivered in various places and addressed to the common people - Cumming, John, 1807-1881 Recent inquiries in theology : by eminent English churchmen ; being "Essays and reviews" - Hedge, Frederic Henry, 1805-1890, ed The 'Essays and reviews' examined : a series of articles contributed to the 'Morning Post' - Buchanan, James, 1804-1870 Sermons on the Beatitudes : with others mostly preached before the University of Oxford ; to which is added a preface relating to the recent volume of "Essays and reviews" England and Christendom - Manning, Henry Edward, 1808-1892 The Crown in council on the Essays and reviews; Neology not true, and truth not new : three short treatises concerning F.D. Maurice's Vere Street sermons, The Rev. Prof. Jowett's doctrine on "The righteousness of God," J.L. Davies' reply to "Atonement by propitiation," with that treatise also, and a summary of the atonement controversy - Hebert, Charles, 1807-1890
Armchair Scholar		#19	[-]
Posts: 1191 (09/12/2009 11:02:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks! Are there also some that mainly address W & H?
Euthymius		#20	[-]
Posts: 2054 (09/12/2009 12:18:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Westcott and Hort were not contributors to Essays and Reviews (originally published in 1860 when both W&H were still young scholars) so they obviously do not bear the brunt of the criticisms heaped thereupon. However, they do indicate in the various Life and Letters volumes their general agreement with the thrust of Essays and Reviews and the authors thereof, even while indicating their reluctance to make public statements in support of such, lest they be considered heretics also, and thus risk losing support for their Greek textual work then in progress (if that is what you are asking).

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