Do Hebrew Scholars have authority to overrule the name "JEHOVAH"?

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Exodus Six Verse Three

Do Hebrew Scholars have authority to overrule the name "JEHOVAH"?

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Posts: 198

(06/18/2009 03:07:59)

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The title of this new topic is:

"Do Hebrew Scholars have authority to overrule the name "JEHOVAH"?

It is commonly known on KJVO discussion boards that Hebrew Word #3068,
from which the English name "JEHOVAH" is derived,
occurs 6518 times in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.

------------------
As shown directly above,
the Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon of 1905 states
that Hebrew Word #3068 occurs 6518 times in the M.T.

NOTE THAT A VARIANT OF THE TETRAGRAMMATON
OCCURS 305 TIMES IN THE BEN CHAYYIM HEBREW TEXT.

AS SHOWN THIS VARIANT HAS THE PRECISE SAME VOWEL POINTS,
AS DOES THE HEBREW WORD ELOHIYM,
WHICH IS SHOWN IN PARENTHESIS

THE KJV TRANSLATORS TRANSLATE THIS VARIANT
AS GOD [IN SMALL CAPITALS]

It is a commonly known fact on KJVO discussion boards,
that modern Hebrew Scholars,
as well as the Jewish people,
do not believe that God's name is "JEHOVAH".

The question arises:

Is the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D. Scripture
"that is given by inspiration of God"?

If indeed the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.
is Scripture "that is given by inspiration of God"!

It would appear rather obvious:

God has clearly revealed His name as JEHOVAH
in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text of 1525 A.D.

AND

THE CASE IS CLOSED!

Exodus

P.S.

To be redundant:

Do Hebrew Scholars have authority to overrule the name "JEHOVAH"?

Of course if the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text is not Scripture
"that is given by inspiration of God",
THEN:
Scripture believing Christians may have an even bigger problem!

amarillo

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Posts: 3223

(06/18/2009 03:14:32)

Administrator

Exodus Six Verse Three wrote:
The title of this new topic is:

"Do Hebrew Scholars have authority to overrule the name "JEHOVAH"?

It is commonly known on KJVO discussion boards that Hebrew Word #3068,
from which the English name "JEHOVAH" is derived,
occurs 6518 times in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.

------------------
As shown directly above,
the Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon of 1905 states
that Hebrew Word #3068 occurs 6518 times in the M.T.

NOTE THAT A VARIANT OF THE TETRAGRAMMATON
OCCURS 305 TIMES IN THE BEN CHAYYIM HEBREW TEXT.

AS SHOWN THIS VARIANT HAS THE PRECISE SAME VOWEL POINTS,
AS DOES THE HEBREW WORD ELOHIYM,
WHICH IS SHOWN IN PARENTHESIS

THE KJV TRANSLATORS TRANSLATE THIS VARIANT
AS GOD [IN SMALL CAPITALS]

It is a commonly known fact on KJVO discussion boards,
that modern Hebrew Scholars,
as well as the Jewish people,
do not believe that God's name is "JEHOVAH".

The question arises:

Is the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D. Scripture
"that is given by inspiration of God"?

If indeed the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.
is Scripture "that is given by inspiration of God"!

It would appear rather obvious:

God has clearly revealed His name as JEHOVAH
in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text of 1525 A.D.

AND

THE CASE IS CLOSED!

Exodus

P.S.

To be redundant:

Do Hebrew Scholars have authority to overrule the name "JEHOVAH"?

Of course if the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text is not Scripture
"that is given by inspiration of God",
THEN:
Scripture believing Christians may have an even bigger problem!

i dunno, but they seem to have done it ca. 200 BC in more than two places in their LXX, using KYRIOS, with apparent divine concurrence by Christ and the NT writers a few centuries later.

Joseph Ng
"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."
Ps 119:89 KJB

Exodus Six Verse Three

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Posts: 199

(06/18/2009 03:46:19)

Hi Amarillo,

You wrote:

i dunno, but they seem to have done it ca. 200 BC
in more than two places in their LXX,
using KYRIOS,
with apparent divine concurrence by Christ and the NT writers a few centuries later.

Amarillo,

Do you believe that modern versions of the Bible are more correct,
or at least more consistant,
where they translate the Tetragrammaton,
in the OLD TESTAMENT,
as LORD [in small capitals] 6518 times,
and
as GOD [in small captals] 305 times.

Exodus

amarillo

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Posts: 3224

(06/18/2009 10:53:20)

Administrator

Exodus Six Verse Three wrote:
Hi Amarillo,

You wrote:

i dunno, but they seem to have done it ca. 200 BC
in more than two places in their LXX,
using KYRIOS,
with apparent divine concurrence by Christ and the NT writers a few centuries later.

Amarillo,

Do you believe that modern versions of the Bible are more correct,
or at least more consistant,
where they translate the Tetragrammaton,
in the OLD TESTAMENT,
as LORD [in small capitals] 6518 times,
and
as GOD [in small captals] 305 times.

Exodus

hi Exodus,

good questions, to which i must defer to the experts in Hebrew. i personally prefer to say "Yahweh" every time i see "the LORD" in the OT, but that's just been my idiosyncratic practice since the 1990s. i can't jump on those who'd rather say "the lord" (a la KYRIOS) at those same occurrences if neither Christ nor the Apostles reacted negatively to the same usage. it doesn't matter exactly how many times it happens--as a matter of principle, i don't think we cld make a strong case against the KYRIOS qere.

'rillo

Joseph Ng
"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."
Ps 119:89 KJB

Exodus Six Verse Three

[-]

Posts: 200

(06/18/2009 13:18:14)

Hi Amarillo,

You wrote:

hi Exodus,

good questions, to which i must defer to the experts in Hebrew.

i personally prefer to say "Yahweh"
every time i see "the LORD" in the OT,
but that's just been my idiosyncratic practice since the 1990s.

i can't jump on those who'd rather say "the lord" (a la KYRIOS) at those same occurrences
if neither Christ nor the Apostles reacted negatively to the same usage.

it doesn't matter exactly how many times it happens--as a matter of principle,
i don't think we cld make a strong case against the KYRIOS qere.

'rillo

Amarillo

You said:
"i personally prefer to say "Yahweh" every time i see "the LORD" in the OT,
but that's just been my idiosyncratic practice since the 1990s."

By any chance have you been involved with GGWO in Baltimore, Maryland,
who started teaching that God's name was "Yahweh in the 1990's.

I have been involved with GGWO,
as well as in the controversy about "Yahweh",
since the 1990's,
but the more I think about the evidence,
for the name "Yahweh",
that has been presented,
the more I think the evidence presented for the name "Yahweh"
lacks support from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Exodus

P.S.
In my opinion the evidence for "Yahweh" is either
the Greek transcription "IaBe" [Which seems to be supported by Gesenius]
or
the Greek transcription "Iaoue",
neither of which seems to me to have Scriptural Support,
although I suspect others may disagree with me on this point..

The two images below are from William Smith's 1863
"A Dictionary of the Bible"

Gesenius' s proposed punctuation

Gesenius acknowledged in his German writings,
that he was influenced by the Greek transcription "IaBe".

amarillo

[-]

Posts: 3226

(06/18/2009 14:18:48)

Administrator

Exodus Six Verse Three wrote:

You said:
"i personally prefer to say "Yahweh" every time i see "the LORD" in the OT,
but that's just been my idiosyncratic practice since the 1990s."

By any chance have you been involved with GGWO in Baltimore, Maryland,
who started teaching that God's name was "Yahweh in the 1990's.

no idea who GGWO might be. but Yahweh's simply one standard English transliteration of the sacred tetragrammaton. do u have a flair for the cryptic?

I have been involved with GGWO,
as well as in the controversy about "Yahweh",
since the 1990's,
but the more I think about the evidence,
for the name "Yahweh",
that has been presented,
the more I think the evidence presented for the name "Yahweh"
lacks support from the Hebrew Scriptures.

that's odd. but if u're uncomfortable with the vowels, how'bout YHWH, another pretty standard transliteration?

Exodus

P.S.
In my opinion the evidence for "Yahweh" is either
the Greek transcription "IaBe" [Which seems to be supported by Gesenius]
or
the Greek transcription "Iaoue",
neither of which seems to me to have Scriptural Support,
although I suspect others may disagree with me on this point..

wow, this is really bizarre. there are 4 Hebrew letters for the name: Y-H-W-H. what's the big deal about this and the appeal to obscure Greek transcriptions? u even have ur own graphic of the 4 letters below!

The two images below are from William Smith's 1863
"A Dictionary of the Bible"

Gesenius acknowledged in his German writings,
that he was influenced by the Greek transcription "IaBe".

who cares what Gesenius says. look at the Hebrew letters themselves!

in any case, if this thread's not going to be shown to relate to KJBOism in any way, i'm going to have to move it in a couple of hours.

Joseph Ng
"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."
Ps 119:89 KJB

Exodus Six Verse Three

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Posts: 204

(06/19/2009 18:08:10)

Hi amaillo,

You asked several questions:

1. no idea who GGWO might be.
but Yahweh's simply one standard English transliteration of the sacred tetragrammaton.
do u have a flair for the cryptic?

adjective Also, cryp⋅ti⋅cal.

mysterious in meaning; puzzling; ambiguous: a cryptic message.

I basically see "Yahweh" as a guess name,
that doesn't have solid backing from any extant Hebrew Scriptures.
Of course I could be mistaken.

2. that's odd. but if u're uncomfortable with the vowels, how'bout YHWH,
another pretty standard transliteration?

The mystery of what is the original pronunciation God's Names,
starts with YHWH,
which is sometimes referred to as the unvocalized Tetragrammaton.

Hebrew scholars believe that the Masoretes placed some of the vowel points from "Adonay" into YHWH,
rather than placing the actual vowel points of God's name into YHWH.

3. wow, this is really bizarre. there are 4 Hebrew letters for the name: Y-H-W-H.
what's the big deal about this
and the appeal to obscure Greek transcriptions?
u even have ur own graphic of the 4 letters below!

In or before the 18th century,
Hebrew scholars seemed to have reached an agreement amoung themselves
that Jehovah was not the actual pronunciation of God's name

Hebrew and Greek scholars started to investigate the Greek transcriptions of YHWH,
especially Clement of Alexandria's "Iaoue" which favors :Yahweh"
and "IaBe" which favors "Yahveh"
[ The Greek letter "B" is believed to have had a "V' sound,
in the early part of the first millenium.]

4. who cares what Gesenius says. look at the Hebrew letters themselves! .

Those Hebrew letters that appear on the first line of the Image Below from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon,
were P-R-O-P-O-S-E-D by Gesenius in the early 19th Century.
I think they first appeared in the writings of Gesenius,
in about 1815 A.D.

William Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible" credits Gesenius
with having proposed the Hebrew Spelling which appears later
on the first line of the image from the BDB Lexicon of 1905 shown above.

____________________________________________^^^^^^

　 Gesenius' s proposed punctuation

Exodus

gconan

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Posts: 982

(06/19/2009 18:18:19)

Registered User

I basically see "Yahweh" as a guess name,
that doesn't have solid backing from any extant Hebrew Scriptures.
Of course I could be mistaken.

While it is almost if not quite certain that the Name was originally pronounced "Yahweh," this pronunciation was not indicated when the Masoretes added vowel signs to the consonantal Hebrew text.

From the RSV preface

amarillo

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Posts: 3229

(06/19/2009 19:30:29)

Administrator

Exodus Six Verse Three wrote:

I basically see "Yahweh" as a guess name,
that doesn't have solid backing from any extant Hebrew Scriptures.
Of course I could be mistaken.

in a sense, of course it's a "guess name." esp if the weird-looking vowel points were a later insertion. but as your argument fr the Greek suggests, it's not too far off. so why the big deal?

2. that's odd. but if u're uncomfortable with the vowels, how'bout YHWH,
another pretty standard transliteration?

The mystery of what is the original pronunciation God's Names,
starts with YHWH,
which is sometimes referred to as the unvocalized Tetragrammaton.

are u saying the lack of vowel points in ancient/palaeo-Hebrew means it's unvocalised? but that lack of vowels applies to the whole text. so your point?

Hebrew scholars believe that the Masoretes placed some of the vowel points from "Adonay" into YHWH,
rather than placing the actual vowel points of God's name into YHWH.

and if they did, i don't have a problem with it.

3. wow, this is really bizarre. there are 4 Hebrew letters for the name: Y-H-W-H.
what's the big deal about this
and the appeal to obscure Greek transcriptions?
u even have ur own graphic of the 4 letters below!

In or before the 18th century,
Hebrew scholars seemed to have reached an agreement amoung themselves
that Jehovah was not the actual pronunciation of God's name

as u probably know, the palaeo-Hebrew text didn't have vowel pointing either ... waaaaay before the 18th century. so your point was ...

Hebrew and Greek scholars started to investigate the Greek transcriptions of YHWH,
especially Clement of Alexandria's "Iaoue" which favors :Yahweh"
and "IaBe" which favors "Yahveh"
[ The Greek letter "B" is believed to have had a "V' sound,
in the early part of the first millenium.]

well, good. that ain't too far from Yahweh then. as i'd assume u know, the consonants B, V, and W are often interchangeable in many languages.

again, what's the big deal?

Those Hebrew letters that appear on the first line of the Image Below from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon,
were P-R-O-P-O-S-E-D by Gesenius in the early 19th Century.
I think they first appeared in the writings of Gesenius,
in about 1815 A.D.

William Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible" credits Gesenius
with having proposed the Hebrew Spelling which appears later
on the first line of the image from the BDB Lexicon of 1905 shown above.

____________________________________________^^^^^^

　

Exodus

fine, let's take this to another part of the board--i think it may be putting the PCE and VPP KJBOs to sleep.

but it wld help heaps if we cld have a succinct summary of what the great big deal might be--or are we hiking a mountain of a molehill?