| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
BibleNerd |
Rev. 3:20 |
Lead | |
|
In Rev. 3:20, does the perfect active indicative form of "to stand" coming before the present active indicative form of "to knock" serve as
a limit on "to knock?" (As in: "I have stood at the door and knock," versus "I am standing at the door and knocking," which
implies ongoing action for an indefinite period.) Are there any other cases in the Greek (ideally New Testament) where a perfect verb before a present might
limit the present to the 'here and now' instead of continuing action?
|
|||
mko |
|||
|
Erasmus has "ecce sto ad ostium et pulso", "behold I stand at the gate and knock", simple present, though Latin translations may not
completely express the Greek...
"Things don't happen together by coincidence, without the hand of God guiding them. Like, say, your ex-girlfriend hunting you down for a date the
minute you give up on love, with an eye on the altar."
|
|||
Euthymius |
|||
|
Nerd: Are there any other cases in the Greek (ideally New Testament) where a perfect verb before a present might limit the present to the 'here and
now' instead of continuing action?
If I understand the question correctly, the answer should be yes; e.g., from the gospel of John: Jn 6:36 "You have seen me (perfect tense) and you do not believe (Present tense)" Jn 7:19 "Has not Moses given (perfect) you the law, and not one of you do (present) the law" Jn 8:38 "That which I have seen (perfect) from my father I say (present) ... That which you have seen (perfect) from your father, you do (present)" Jn 8:52 "Now we have known (perfect) that you have (present) a demon" Jn 15:10 "I have kept (perfect) the commands of my father, and I remain (present) in his love" Jn 17:7 "what things you have given (perfect) to me are (present) from you" Jn 17:24 "Whom you have given (perfect) to me, I will (present) that where I am they also should be" Jn 20:21"Just as the father has sent (perfect) me, even I send (present) you" |
|||
forcyncia |
gotta love that greek | ||
|
Hi everyone!
|
|||
mko |
|||
|
past and continuing into the present... sounds like "we have been seeing" ?
"Things don't happen together by coincidence, without the hand of God guiding them. Like, say, your ex-girlfriend hunting you down for a date the
minute you give up on love, with an eye on the altar."
|
|||
Gary O 1 |
|||
Behold, I have taken my stand (ready, having a steadfast mind, unwavering and unmoving) at the door [and am still standing (steadfast and unwavering) and will continue to stand (until I enter in)] and I knock (am knocking, continue to knock). (paraphrased) I don't know Greek at all, so this may be a stupid question, but I have to ask it. What prompts you to place the phrase "until I enter in" in parenthesis (I put it in bold for emphasis) at that point in the verse? Are you saying He will not leave that spot until He enters? Or that it's a given that He absolutely will enter at some point in the future? Just wondering. Thanks, Gary O.
-----
"Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth" - Charlie Chan at Treasure Island |
|||
forcyncia |
|||
|
Hi Gary -
If Christ is standing at the door and continues to stand and will continue to stand there, what then is the condition that He is no longer standing at the door? It would have to be when He enters. After Christ tells us he is standing outside and knocking, he then sets forth a condition: "If any one may hear me and may open the door, I will come in..." But my apologies. I think I overstepped the case here by entering my thoughts into my paraphrase at this point, with the verb "stand". My mind was running to His entering in through the door and logically concluded "at that time He is no longer standing outside knocking." One point in my favor is that the verb eiserchomai (come into/unto, enter) and the preposition pros (to or toward) speak about physically moving from one place to the other. It begged the response to define the end of standing and because following was the condition that ended the standing outside the door. It's good to keep me on my toes and fingers off the keyboard. I type fast and think long [wait, that is like kind of apples and oranges isn't it? whatever]. Sometimes that creates simple typo's - other times I just become like James Joyce and the stream of consciousness just keeps flowing... ... ... ... ... IMHO - On the theological end, salvation is for "whosoever will". I see Christ standing outside all our doors and knocking until we open. He is faithful and true. mko - "we have been seeing" does not necessarily denote that we will continue seeing into the present. My understanding is that imperfect is a past progressive action; aorist is a single one-time past action. Perfect is a different animal. Who formed the Greek language anyway? I mean, how did all that obsessive-compulsive, micro-detailed, analytical verb development happen? I'd like to blame it on Pythagoras, but it was a done deal way before his time. There must have been a "head grammarian" who was a micro-manager, totally obsessive-compulsive and perhaps a little anal retentive thrown in for good measure who in governing the formation of Greek verbs said, "Hippoclites, you stop there! There has to be a case for an ongoing action that keeps ongoing and continues ongoing into the future!! Now get to it!" Again just my IMHO. cyncia - PS - keep your red pencil handy, criticism is okay. John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
Last Edited By: forcyncia
07/17/2009 07:44:31.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
gconan |
|||
forcyncia wrote: Welcome to the board! |
|||
|
|