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whatbible |
What bible do I read? |
Lead | |
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I believe God perserved his word forever for every generation but I cant find the one that is perfect? Can you help me?
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HoLogos |
No, because I know you don't in reality want help | ||
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By the way, this kind of pretention, Jesus called "hypocrisy." |
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whatbible |
Re: No, because I know you don't in reality want help | ||
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I do want help its not pretention my dad says king james only and I read people that say king james isnt perfect either I dont know what to read?
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whatbible |
Acctually he says | ||
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If the king james isnt perfect then where is god perfect word for our family? I dont know what to do? Because I believe God said he would keep his word and I believe that the KJV and NIV all the others are flawed.
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whatbible |
Please | ||
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Please dont give up on me. I am thorougly confused
I have been reading this debate on which bible for the last couple of days and I hear valid points on both sides. In my heart I beleive the truth of God exists, I was raised a christian so I believe in part cause they (those who taught) said the bible says so. Those who taught me have read from all sorts of versions. I believe also because I was lost in pornography and I called on Jesus to help me and he freed me from my sin and I have never gone back, not only that by lying also which I used to do heavily and purposefully. So I believe that God is. He loves me. He saved me, helped me, and he has more help for me in the form of his written truth. I am confused as to where I can find it in pure form because of all these things I have read. |
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HoLogos |
I'm sorry | ||
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You do sound sincere. I apologize for my judgment of you; you have to understand that many do come in here pretending. KJV onlyists come here pretending.
My friend, I sympathize with you. I really wish there were one perfect translation. I have concluded there is not. I hope that does not shake your faith. It need not. Most all of the translations are used by God and all you need. If you pick the KJV, you are fine. If you pick the NKJV, that would be fine too. Same with the NASB or the ESV. You said << Because I believe God said he would keep his word >>. I believe that too. I believe he has kept it in multiple translations. There is a positive way to view this. You are not perfect. Yet, God can and will use you. Isn't that comforting? The differences between the translations, and the underlying Greek texts, really are not that much. Other than perhaps the ending of Mark, the differences make no difference practically or theologically. I really think you need not be as concerned as you are. The only reason I am into analyzing all the small differences, is because I am doing a Bible myself. Otherwise, I wouldn't probably even bother discussing some of the tiny differences I do discuss here. If you are a minor and still living at home, I would use the KJV, in honor of your father. Trust and seek God, and also maybe study other books that help explain some of the old English in the KJV. You will do fine with the KJV. I recommend the ESV, the English Standard Version. I think it is a good balance between literalness and readability. Of course, if I couldn't recommend the translation I am doing, I shouldn't be doing it. So, I recommend that as well. This is a direct link to a 1.7 MB .zip file, 5. 9 MB after unzipping. It is the whole Bible in Microsoft Word. It is free. Uncopyrighted. Peace to you in Jesus. |
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whatbible |
Dear Sir | ||
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My dad and talked about it last night. I went from saying I have a bible that I can trust when I sent this request to you. To this is the BIBLE and anything else is a lie that I am going to judge and punish and I wont talk to other christians unless they repent (after I sent this to you). He said both of these was wrong Jesus doesnt have these kinds of attitude or spirits. The reason I chose that action was because I was sick of these stupid debates and wanted to just have a Gods way or the high way, but really it was my way or the high way. I also just dont know how we can have a Bible that is flawed. What if I read the wrong part and start applying it to my life oh noo I'm going to hell and everyone I share with if they believe me. But he said Jesus isnt like that he long suffers with us(christians those who really want to be like him), chastens us, teaches us, has compassion on us, until we get it. It isnt that we arent saved. Its that we are tricked and he helps us get untricked. It does comfort me that you believe God can still use me even though I'm flawed. I think that is the gospel that God loves me even though I'm flawed and died for me and rose for me. He loves me. Maybe some day we will have a perfect Bible.
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mycountach |
Re: Acctually he says | ||
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>I believe that the KJV and NIV all the others are flawed. Why?? |
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steelmaker |
Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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We must bear in mind that all English Bibles are TRANSLATIONS, and as such, cannot be absolutely perfect as men view perfection. None of this is lost on GOD, however, and He causes His word to appear in a given language as HE chooses. Hebrew is a radically-different language from English, and many Hebrew words/phrases have multiple meanings in English, and when context is no help, the translator must make his/her best guess as to which definition is proper in a given phrase or sentence. Same for Koine Greek, although it isn't as different from English as Hebrew is. Many things called "flaws" are actually differing translations of the same word(s).
A REAL flaw is something akin to "Easter" in the KJV's Acts 12:4, which is a carryover from an incorrect definition many years before the KJV was made. However, this goof doesn't alter the MESSAGE of that set of verses one bit. We must be objective about what we call "flaws", especially if they don't alter the message. |
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Barry Ruckilow |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Easter is not a flaw. ...After the days of unleavened bread" Don't let this guy destoy your faith in God's word. ALL bibles are translations, not just English ones. As a reader of English, If for no other reason than the historical FRUIT, stick with, believe, and trust the Bible of Torrey, Moody, Sunday, the Great Awakening, the one that is responsible for "the Bible belt".
By there fruits, you'll know em. "IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SECEDE....."
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Fearless1J418 |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Why not trust the bible of the reformation?
What need was there to change? ![]() "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose" - Jim Elliott, martyred in Quito, Ecuador 1956 |
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steelmaker |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Barry Ruckilow:Easter is not a flaw. ...
Yes, it IS...Easter didn't exist when Luke wrote Acts. After the days of unleavened bread" Try READING before ya post. It says, "THEN were the days of unleavened bread", meaning they were going on when herod busted Peter. Don't let this guy destoy your faith in God's word. Actually, don't listen to THAT guy, as he's evidently yet another poseur. ALL bibles are translations, not just English ones. Right. But we're dealing mostly withEnglish ones in these discussions. As a reader of English, If for no other reason than the historical FRUIT, stick with, believe, and trust the Bible of Torrey, Moody, Sunday, the Great Awakening, the one that is responsible for "the Bible belt". By there fruits, you'll know em. Fruit trees grow old & their production fades. "IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SECEDE..." Lose, lose again. |
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wildboar99 |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
Quote: Ah....now I know who to blame for the rampant Arminianism in the Bible-belt, it's the KJV. Just kidding, but if Torrey, Moody, and Sunday jumped off a cliff... But seriously, wouldn't it be better to judge a translation based upon how faithful it is to the original languages rather than who used that particular Bible? The Apostles most often used the Septuagint, but most of us don't use Bibles with Old Testaments based on the Septuaging and certainly the testimony of the Apostles is far more substantial than the testimony of Torrey, Moody, and Sunday, unless a person's faith is built on nothing less than Scofield notes and Moody Press. |
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Curtis7777 |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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The Apostles most often used the Septuagint...
This will make KJVOs flip out. Their leader (Ruckman) came up with the novel idea the LXX is POST-Christian, though he is not an expert in the LXX and probably never examined one mss. of such. but most of us don't use Bibles with Old Testaments based on the Septuaging That is an excellent point. Most KJVOs believe the LXX came into play within the church with W-H. The early church believed it was the apostles' OT. The Byzantine Church used the LXX as their OT (they still do). Once the LXX is allowed it demolishes the KJVOs history of transmission, i.e. the apostles used a faulty version rather than a "perfect" Bible (Hebrew OT). The question remains "why would the Byzantine Church who used the Majority text which underlies the KJV use the LXX?" Curtis Dubreuil
North Carolina |
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wildboar99 |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Well, I'm drifting a bit from the KJV-onlyist topic but I do want to say a couple of things.
Quote: The LXX as used by the Orthodox today is probably not the same as the Greek texts used by the Apostles. What is more ineresting is the fact that the KJV deviates from the Hebrew text at least 228 times. At least 228 times as Dr. James Price shows in his very detailed unpublished paper, the KJV follows some other ancient version (such as the Vulgate or LXX) or some rabbinic tradition or some unknown source rather than the Hebrew text. Although these changes are generally not doctrinally significant, a few of them are and it certainly destroys any notion of a perfect translation. It is certainly understandable that men with such knowledge, familiar with the Bible in various languages, would accidentally interject a familiar reading from the Vulgate. Quote: The Majority text does not underlie the KJV, although the majority text and the so-called Textus Receptus are in agreement throughout much of the New Testament. There are a number of reasons why the EO uses the LXX. First of all, they are Greek speaking. Second of all, there has always been some suspicion that the Jews corrupted the text and the Masoretic text was not to be trusted. Most of these suspicions were laid to rest with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which showed the ancient pre-Christian origin of the Masoretic text. On the other hand, some manuscripts were found which were in stronger agreement with the LXX, showing that the differences between the LXX and the Masoretic text were not necessarily due to a bad translation, but often due to use of different manuscripts. However, the Protestant churches have rightly declared that only the Scriptures as they are found in their original languages are to be considered authentic. The EO were better able to faithfully transmit the Greek text than anyone else and there is no evidence of any large scale intentional corruption of the text, neither in the realm of addition or subtraction. The same is true of the Masoretic text. Canon is not determined by the church but it is recognized by the church and the canon is not an empty set of books. The canon contains a text within it and God preserves His Word. |
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steelmaker |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Dr. Thomas Cassidy believes something even MORE condemning to the KJVO cause...He believes there were at least two other Hebrew OT versions in use in the Judea area during Christ's earthly time, and that the oft-mentioned variant reading done by JESUS HIMSELF in Luke 4:16-21 was made by Him from one of those versions, as were the various OT quotes of the apostles, & the variant reading in Acts 8. If correct, this is MUCH more-telling than if they were using the LXX!
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Curtis7777 |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Dr. James Price shows in his very detailed unpublished paper,
Could you provide the name of the paper and perhaps the journal article in which it appeared. It sounds like an interesting study. It is certainly understandable that men with such knowledge, familiar with the Bible in various languages, would accidentally interject a familiar reading from the Vulgate. According to Adam Nicholson it is no accident. See _God's Secretaries_ pp. 209-212. They were striving for exactness but at the same time readability. Those expert in foreign languages would follow along in the reading of the semi-final product of the KJV translation. If a phrase was worded better in the foreign translation, they would adopt that reading after much debate. The Majority text does not underlie the KJV, although the majority text and the so-called Textus Receptus are in agreement throughout much of the New Testament. If I am not mistaken the TR and BYZ text have 98% agreement. The KJV has a high degree of affinity to the various TRs extant. I think it is safe to say the BYZ text undlies the KJV. The rest of your post is excellent. Curtis Dubreuil
North Carolina |
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Curtis7777 |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Dr. Thomas Cassidy believes something even MORE condemning to the KJVO cause...He believes there were at least two other Hebrew OT versions in use...
Wow! Curtis Dubreuil
North Carolina |
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steelmaker |
Re: Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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Even though Dr. C and I have clashed over some matters, I consider him a competent scholar and an excellent historian. Obviously, I'd like to see that opinion verified by more evidence by more scholars.
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wildboar99 |
Re:Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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>Could you provide the name of the paper and perhaps the journal article in which it appeared. It sounds like an interesting study.
The paper was delivered to Evangelical Theological Society Southern Region in 1986 and called "Textual Emendations in the Authorized Version." It is also going to be part of an upcoming book on KJV-onlyism. He emailed me a copy of the paper along with charts showing all the emendations he found and their sources. I spot checked a number of them and didn't find any errors on his part. I didn't ask for permission to distribute what he emailed me, so you might want to email him for a copy if you are interested. >If I am not mistaken the TR and BYZ text have 98% agreement. The KJV has a high degree of affinity to the various TRs extant. I think it is safe to say the BYZ text undlies the KJV. I would say that a somewhat impure text from the Byzantine family underlies much of the KJV. You have to keep in mind that whatever Greek New Testament you are using, there is about 85% agreement. The TR is based on a small number of a manuscripts brought by Eastern Orthodox monks who were fleeing persecution by the Muslims. These manuscripts contained marginal notes and these marginal notes I believe were misunderstood by Erasmus and others and incorporated into the actual text. In many ways the TR is an artificial text and extremely eclectic text. In the book of Revelations especially there is a significant difference between the TR and the Byzantine text. Erasmus did not even have the last page of Revelation in any Greek text and so created an artificial one from the Vulgate. At any rate the Byzantine text of Revelation resembles NA27 more than it does the TR, even though it differs from both considerably. Charles Wiese Grand Rapids, MI |
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mycountach |
Re: Re:Whaddya mean by "flawed"? | ||
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>In many ways the TR is an artificial text and extremely
>eclectic text. In the book of Revelations especially there is a >significant difference between the TR and the Byzantine >text. Actually, there is little consistency within the Byzantine Revelation itself, as it contains two main streams of text types. Whatever arguments sounded plausible about the Byzantine text fall apart in Revelation. |
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