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gconan |
Photo gallery of 1611 edition, KJV marginal variations |
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Bill R K |
Is this news? Is there a point? | ||
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Traditional variants existed in 1611? Translators made choices about which to include in the text? Translators wanted to inform readers about the most significant of the variants? The English speaking people AS A WHOLE adopted their decisions as standard, the definitive Bible in English, conferring upon this one version an authority unequalled before or after? Some people will NEVER accede to any standard, or any decision made by anyone else? There is NO WAY that God's glory could fill a tent of goatskin and camel's hair (or boxed house made of cedar and copper) and thereby establish authority? If there is a point, make it.
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Kristi |
Re: Is this news? Is there a point? | ||
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I don't know what gconan's point was in posting that information. I just thought he posted it because he thought that people (even KJVOs) might find it interesting.
Some people will NEVER accede to any standard I think that there is a standard in place, only most KJVOs do not like it: In the Westminster Confession of Faith (I:8), we read: The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical.And
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gconan |
Re: Is this news? Is there a point? | ||
Quote: Variants existed in the 2nd/3rd century. The KJV translators did not have access to many of them. Quote: Yes, the KJV translators! I wonder why. Quote: the vast majority of Americans do not even know about the 1611 textual varients or alteranative translations or more literal translations. Hardly any Americans have access to the real 1611, with translators notes and preface. Quote: The 1611 translators were not KJV only, I do not see why other's would choose to be, except people who know nothing about how God has gotten the Word to us. For far much longer than 1400 years He has used imperfect handwritten manuscripts to get the Word to us. We certainly have His Word, but not in one single perfect edition. Quote: Why would you think that way of me? Quote: Quote: |
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steelmaker |
Re: Is this news? Is there a point? | ||
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The same almighty God who SPOKE the universe into being and who preserved thousands of ancient writings much older than most of the Scriptures could've just as easily preserved the original writings of His own word. The fact that He chose NOT to should speak volumes to the Onlyist, but apparently His message hasn't sunk in to some people.
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raniac |
Re: Is this news? Is there a point? | ||
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The English speaking people AS A WHOLE adopted their decisions as standard, the definitive Bible in English, conferring upon this one version an authority unequalled before or after?
No. As I said before, the KJV translators decided what the KJV should say and not the people. The printers made subsequent changes and forced them upon the people by way of only printing the newest edition. When someone needed a bible they had to buy the one that the printer offered at the time or not have a bible. So the people took what was availiable without complaint. Most people where thankful just to have a bible that they could read for themselves. raniac |
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Bill R K |
KJV only... | ||
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You wrote: The 1611 translators were not KJV only...
So much depends upon your terminology. If you mean the translators did not think their work was "inspired" I would assume you are correct. But if by "KJV only" you mean what I mean, that the KJV is the one common standard English Bible, and therefore the written authority of God in English, then I suspect you are wrong. The purpose of the KJV in the first place was to make one standard Bible, acceptable to all, "out of many good ones, [to make] one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark." There already was an official Anglican Bible, but the Puritans "excepted" against it, calling it a corrupt translation. It was the Puritans' complaints that motivated the King to authorize a new translation. "But besides all this, they were the principal motives of it, and therefore ought least to quarrel it: for the very Historical truth is, that upon the importunate petitions of the Puritans, at his Majesty's coming to this Crown, the Conference at Hampton Court having been appointed for hearing their complaints: ... that they could not with good conscience subscribe to the Communion book, since it maintained the Bible as it was there translated, which was as they said, a most corrupted translation. ... yet even hereupon did his Majesty begin to bethink himself of the good that might ensue by a new translation, and presently after gave order for this Translation which is now presented unto thee. Thus much to satisfy our scrupulous Brethren." It was to satisfy the dissenters (not the brownists or other separatists, of course, but the Puritans) that James I ordered a translation, with the express desire that it would become common to all. That is the reason for the elimination of doctrinal marginalia in the original KJV. In other words, the purpose behind the original KJV was to produce a STANDARD COMMON English Bible, not justly to be excepted against. This they achieved, and it perdured as practically the only common Bible in English for 275 years. This does not mean the KJV translators thought of their work as inspired, but a STANDARD Bible universally accepted WAS THEIR GOAL, making them KJV only, precisely like I am KJV only. The success of the KJV as the universal standard conferred upon it real authority, to the point that those who "excepted" against it were in very deed "rebellious" or "self-conceited brethren" who would not be satisfied with anything except what was "hammered on their anvil." The torrent of accusations against it since WH are unfounded. The "evidence" against it is miserable, innumerable accusations of error in translation where not more than a handful are even worth noticing, innumerable unfair contentions of textual inaccuracies based on testimony of local mss variations from one remote locality (Egypt), and accusations against the translators themselves (trying to force ecclesiastical authority, or some such) or against the King, or against Erasmus, blah, blah, blah. That is why I stated that some will never accede to any authority. God established the KJV as your authority in English, reject it to your own injury. |
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Bill R K |
Revisionistic nonsense! | ||
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You wrote: The printers made subsequent changes and forced them upon the people by way of only printing the newest edition.
Hilarious! If there were only one printer in the world you might have a point. But printers abounded, and competed with each other for market share, just as they do in our day. If one printer refused to print what the people wanted, for some conspiratorial motivation you imply |
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raniac |
Re: Revisionistic nonsense! | ||
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What you call nonsense is indeed history. See:
members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/kjvcopy.htm BTY, the conspiratorial motivation behind purchasing the right to be the sole printer of the bible (whether it be the bishop's, great, geneva, kjv, etc...) is money--i.e. profits. If you are the only printer that can print that book, then you get 100% of the profit for yourself. On a slightly different note: www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/thesis.htm www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/addendum.htm www.dtl.org/versions/article/text.htm |
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steelmaker |
Re: KJV only...Yeah,Right! | ||
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The AV translators wrote in their Preface(Conveniently left out of most current KJV editions!), "Variety of translations is profitable for the Understanding of the sense of the Scriptures". For those who argue that this little tidbit from the very AV translators applies to individual words or phrases, what's the difference?
Those men simply made a very good translation. It took the authority of KING JAMES to help it replace the Geneva Bible, the English "standard Bible" at the time. What was wrong with the GB except that the King didn't like the marginal notes? Weren't the AV translators "Bible-Correctors"? |
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Bill R K |
The KJV translators' stated purpose... | ||
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their stated "goal, endeavor, and mark" was to produce "one principle good" translation that could not be "justly excepted against." Their stated opinion as the very argument of the preface was that they had accomplished that goal inclusively. No just exception! Many might "quarrel it," but not justly. It's old English, but surely you understand it, steelmaker. They explained the reasoning behind their decisions to prove any objection to their work was not just. This carries out to a number of conclusions about the opinions of the translators themselves:
1. The KJV translation was one of the GOOD translations, not corrupt as the vulgar Romanist versions... "the worst of ours far better than their authentic vulgar." 2. The KJV translation was the BEST of the good ones... "that whatsoever is sound already (and all is sound for substance, in one or other of our editions...) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place...by a new translation, ... this Translation which is now presented unto thee." 3. The KJV translation was the "ONE [read ONLY]PRINCIPLE GOOD" translation they intended. 4. There was NO JUST EXCEPTION to this one [read ONLY] translation. 5. There did exist JUST EXCEPTIONS to every other existing translation [read KJV ONLY], whether generally "good" or not, rejecting the imperiosity of the Bishop's (omitting doctrinal footnotes), "avoid[ing] the scrupulosity of the Puritans [Geneva]," and "shunn[ing] the obscurity of the Papists [Douay]." (Their primary objections to the other "good" translations were due to doctrinal bias, including the official Bishop's, which this was intended to replace, and the popular Geneva, which was laced with political as well as doctrinal spurs). 6. They expected God and his people to confirm their success, by making it common to all, and standard among both Puritans and Anglicans, "thus much to satisfy our scrupulous Brethren," which indeed occurred. 7. In summary, the KJV translators were KJV ONLY, very much like I am (although certainly not like some others are). PS. Steelmaker, I have no problem with a "variety of translations" whether other KJVOs do or not. I have a quarrel with textual slaughter, and imposed opinions, just like the translators did with the Papist versions (unsound in substance and "darkened" with bias.) |
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gconan |
Re: KJV only... | ||
Quote: It was not doctrinal marginalia that "non-KJV translators" deleted! Reasons Moving Us To Set Diversity of Senses in the Margin, where there is Great Probability for Each Some peradventure would have no variety of senses to be set in the margin, lest the authority of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that show of uncertainty, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgment not to be so sound in this point. For though, whatsoever things are necessary are manifest, as S. Chrysostom saith, and as S. Augustine, In those things that are plainly set down in the Scriptures, all such matters are found that concern Faith, Hope, and Charity. Yet for all that it cannot be dissembled, that partly to exercise and whet our wits, partly to wean the curious from loathing of them for their every-where plainness, partly also to stir up our devotion to crave the assistance of God's spirit by prayer, and lastly, that we might be forward to seek aid of our brethren by conference, and never scorn those that be not in all respects so complete as they should be, being to seek in many things ourselves, it hath pleased God in his divine providence, here and there to scatter words and sentences of that difficulty and doubtfulness, not in doctrinal points that concern salvation, (for in such it hath been vouched that the Scriptures are plain) but in matters of less moment, that fearfulness would better beseem us than confidence, and if we will resolve, to resolve upon modesty with S. Augustine, (though not in this same case altogether, yet upon the same ground) Melius est dubitare de occultis, quam litigare de incertis, it is better to make doubt of those things which are secret, than to strive about those things that are uncertain. There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother nor neighbor, as the Hebrews speak) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Again, there be many rare names of certain birds, beasts and precious stones, etc. concerning which the Hebrews themselves are so divided among themselves for judgment, that they may seem to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, than because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margin do well to admonish the Reader to seek further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily? For as it is a fault of incredulity, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can be no less than presumption. Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is no so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded. We know that Sixtus Quintus expressly forbiddeth, that any variety of readings of their vulgar edition, should be put in the margin, (which though it be not altogether the same thing to that we have in hand, yet it looketh that way) but we think he hath not all of his own side his favorers, for this conceit. They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other. If they were sure that their high Priest had all laws shut up in his breast, as Paul the Second bragged, and that he were as free from error by special privilege, as the Dictators of Rome were made by law inviolable, it were another matter; then his word were an Oracle, his opinion a decision. But the eyes of the world are now open, God be thanked, and have been a great while, they find that he is subject to the same affections and infirmities that others be, that his skin is penetrable, and therefore so much as he proveth, not as much as he claimeth, they grant and embrace. |
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gconan |
Re: The KJV translators' stated purpose... | ||
Quote: An Answer to the Imputations of Our Adversaries Now to the latter we answer; that we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the King's speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere. The translation of the Seventy dissenteth from the Original in many places, neither doth it come near it, for perspicuity, gravity, majesty; yet which of the Apostles did condemn it? Condemn it? Nay, they used it, (as it is apparent, and as Saint Jerome and most learned men do confess) which they would not have done, nor by their example of using it, so grace and commend it to the Church, if it had been unworthy the appellation and name of the word of God. The Purpose of the Translators, with their Number, Furniture, Care, etc. But it is high time to leave them, and to show in brief what we proposed to ourselves, and what course we held in this our perusal and survey of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had been true in some sort, that our people had been fed with gall of Dragons instead of wine, with whey instead of milk www.bible-researcher.com/kjvpref.html |
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gconan |
Re: The KJV translators' stated purpose... | ||
Quote: I think it is obvious that you missunderstand the 1611 translators. The Purpose of the Translators, with their Number, Furniture, Care, etc. But it is high time to leave them, and to show in brief what we proposed to ourselves, and what course we held in this our perusal and survey of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had been true in some sort, that our people had been fed with gall of Dragons instead of wine, with whey instead of milk: ) but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark. |
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Bill R K |
One principle good one, not justly excepted against | ||
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I don't think I misunderstand the KJV translators at all. They were not onlyites of course, but they had no reason to be. There was no evidence God had singled out any one translation, there was no standard Bible. In fact, THAT was the problem they were comissioned to fix. The fact that they didn't think a new translation was needed (for they had no serious quarrel with the Bishop's), nor did they think any of the circulating protestant versions were "bad" versions (nor do I, although they clearly had a quarrel with the vulgar Catholic versions), this does not take away the clear imputation in their statement that the translation they produced was in their estimation a "better" one than any other protestant version up to that date, and their purpose was that it be the ONE PRINCIPLE GOOD ONE, without ANY JUST EXCEPTION AGAINST IT. That is, in the humble opinion of the translators, the KJV was worthy of becoming the one preeiminent, standard Bible in English, and what do you know, it did. The fact that the translators didn't think any Bible before the KJV was up to the mark is clear, and the fact that they didn't believe anyone had a just complaint against their work is also clear. That opinion is the essence of my onlyism. No other translation is up to the mark, and there is no just complaint against the KJV. Furthermore, history backs me up in this opinion. The KJV translators were correct in their opinion, they produced a translation that completely dominated the English language, became the universal standard in English, and therefore carries with it more authority to this day than any other version. This wasn't an accident, it was designed that way. And God approved.
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steelmaker |
Re: One principle good one, not justly excepted against | ||
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Do you have any PROOF that God closed the door against any other English Bible translations being made after 1611, especially in the light of the massive changes He caused/allowed in the English language between then & now?
Henry Ford conceived the Model-T to be the best, most practical car ever made up to that time, ant it was, until 1927, when better cars came along, such as the Model-A & the products of other mfgrs. But the Model-T is still a car, same as is the 2003 Taurus. It has simply been replaced with models that reflect newer technology for cars, tires,and roads. The KJV will always be a valid Bible translation. But better ones have come along that reflect the changes in English and the discovery of many more Scriptural mss. Do you believe that later translators had any less motives or ideals than did the AV translators? Among their motives was to please the king and to please the Anglican Church, however lofty were their other goals. |
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Bill R K |
PROOF of WHAT? | ||
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One has to wonder about a demand of proof from someone who expects "a book published before 1930 which contains all the KJVO subdoctrines, catchphrases and buzzwords" in order to treat my faith as sincere, and unrelated to "cult doctrine." The contempt you show for my well-reasoned and conscientious faith in the old standard English Bible belies your demand for PROOF of anything. If you paused to consider any of my posts you would not have wasted your Model-T analogy. Of course there is evidence for what I believe! But why don't you figure out WHAT I BELIEVE before accusing me of following Wilkinson, or demanding proof from me that "God closed the door against any other English Bible being made after 1611." If Wilkinson believes that, ask HIM for proof.
OK, do you have any PROOF that God chose the temple in Jerusalem over the tabernacle in Shiloh, or any PROOF that God rejected the temple in Bethel and insisted on keeping the one in Jerusalem? Do you have any proof that the Epistle of Barnabas is not inspired? How about the Revelation of St. Peter? What proof do you have that the book of Enoch isn't inspired (after all, it is quoted in the NT) and the book of Esther IS inspired (after all, it isn't quoted, and doesn't even mention God). I'll slow down if you need time to catch up, just let me know. |
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mycountach |
Proof of What??? | ||
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You believe in the KJV only, because the KJV was a long tradition. Tell us what your criteria is for a tradition for it to become an authoritative tradition. |
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Mitex |
Authoritative tradition | ||
Quote: The same criteria that leads born again Christians around the world to limit themselves to only the 66 books of canon! In Jesus' Name,
Brent Riggs netgate.newnanutilities.org/~ForHim/preachit.html www.grochow.2a.pl/~ch17027/defense.htm |
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mycountach |
Authoritative tradition | ||
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>>You believe in the KJV only, because the KJV was a long
>>tradition. Tell us what your criteria is for a tradition for it >>to become an authoritative tradition. > >The same criteria that leads born again Christians >around the world to limit themselves to only the 66 >books of canon! Well let's talk about that. At the time of the reformation it was widely believed that the apocryphal books were authoritative. Why were they rejected by the reformers? Not because of current practice, because current practice might dictate they be included. They were rejected by looking back historically in time to what was believed to be the Jewish Canon in the 1st century. One might well use the same criteria to reject the Byzantine text by looking historically back in time to what was believed to be the earliest form of the text in the 1st century. It seems to me that protestantism is the idea of always looking back to the origins of Christianity, never being satisfied to accept mere tradition when the evidence points to that tradition not being an original part of the religion. Now in terms of what "born again Christians around the world believe", it has never been the case that any knowledgable born again Christian would accept the KJV or TR as unneeding of revision. Whether we talk about Martin Luther, Calvin, Beza, Stephanus, Erasmus, Spurgeon, Burgon or whoever, NOBODY has ever thought the TR to not be in need of revision. This is a fundamentally different situation to the Canon, where at least most books were accepted completely without doubt very early on, and ultimately there was consensus about the Canon. However there has never been consensus or anything remotely like consensus that the TR or KJV was correct and unneeding of revision. The closest thing to consensus ever is the current UBS text which is pretty much accepted by all except the small number of TR hold-outs. |
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Bill R K |
"Consensus" ! on UBS Greek | ||
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You wrote: The closest thing to consensus ever is the current UBS text which is pretty much accepted by all except the small number of TR hold-outs.
You live in a small world of your own making, mycountach. Maybe a lot depends upon the region you live in, and the circle you limit yourself to. For your information the UBS, critical text, is a long way from achieving a consensus, certainly nothing like the TR attained and held for centuries. Critical text Bibles do not dominate the field in many areas of the English speaking world, and in conservative churches in the Bible Belt the KJV is still quite dominant. Of course that is a tautology, since in the Bible Belt the definition of "conservative" often includes the Bible a church uses. But no need to be a narrow-minded Texan about things. Consider Latin America. TR Bibles make up more than 90 percent of sales, RV-1960 about 75 percent, RV-1909 about 10 percent, and RV-1995 about 5 percent. This doesn't count subsidized distributions, which are almost entirely RV-1909s. Ask yourself why the UBS even puts out the RV-1995, a TR Bible textually almost identical to the RV-1960! Better yet, try to buy an RV-1977 in a Christian book store. The RV-1977 is a critical text revision of the Valera which probably didn't last more than one edition. What happened to the Versin Moderna, 1967, the ABS's critical text edition of the RV-1960? The fact that Evangelical Christians all over Latin America reject the critical text makes the UBS reject it's own "standard" in publishing Bibles in Spanish. There's no consensus for the UBS text even in the UBS |
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