KJVO and "Last Days Madness"

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original deep elem preacher	Re: Finally an agreement! Not	#21	[-]
Posts: 759 (12/11/2002 10:49:03) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	[quote]Actually, my thought on this is that KJVOs exist because of the obvious success of pre-milleniallism in the last centuries, and how neatly current events fit Biblical last days scenarios. [/quote] My mistake. In that case, I don't follow you at all. If Scofield (NOT KJVO), Darby (NOT KJVO, made his own translation), Ironside, Bruce, Pink, etc. had not made the case for dispensational premilleniallism, I don't see how that would necessarily have caused people to accept Westcott & Horts totally falacious method of TC. In fact, many of the original tenets of W&H are no longer followed, but the results are held sancrosanct. Much like natural evolution, where Darwin's original arguments seem silly now, but the result of the thinking must be maintained at all costs. If you have a picture in your mind of a fairly uneducated, extremely close-minded subjective fire-breathing independent fundamental premillenial "Bible-believing" Baptist, complete with ill-fitting tight collar and some hay still stuck on the bottom of his shoe as a "typical" KJVO, your "seige mentality" might have some plausibility. I stopped dealing with those guys years ago (they actually stopped dealing with me because I wasn't "right" because I didn't attend a fundamental independent premillenial bible believing church with an independent fundamental premillenial bible believing preacher [otherwise known as a "good man"]). There are KJVO's around who are NOT hayseeds, who do not hold to the position out of ignorance, or even prejudice -- although you will never convice anyone on this forum of that. I was also led to the KJVO position by continual Bible correcting on the part of teachers who did not agree on WHAT the Bible SHOULD say if WAS right. I realized the Bible, that is ANY Bible currently in print, in ANY language, was NOT their authority, and that they would throw out what the Bible says in a heart beat to support some position they had learned in Bible school or seminary. Scholarship was their authority, and scholarship is a very subjective, very inexact science. It is changing, from one school to another, from one professor to another, from one denomination to another. In spite of them, I came to believe that the Bible IS the Word of God and it is MY judge, and not vice versa. I have preached and teached the KJV for 20 years, and have never corrected one word of it. I do NOT make an issue of it, and avoid getting into a conversation about it as much as possible. I just keep reading it, using it, teaching it, and most importantly, believing it. And God has blessed incredibly... "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart... I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand..." -- Jeremiah 15:16,17
Psm37 37a KJV	The British Empire is Gone	#22	[-]
Posts: 1015 (12/11/2002 10:50:12) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I give you data, you give me unsupported assertions and ask for anecdotal proof. How lame. English is NOT the universal language of the world -- not even really its "trade language". I have never seen any data that would back up your claim about the English language being like the Greek language used to be in the civilized world. WASPs no longer control the civilized world -- get over it. ------------------ When we live as if all life is spiritual -- which it surely is -- we translate the will of God into the minutiae of our lives, where it belongs. --Patrick M. Morley in The Man in the Mirror
original deep elem preacher	Re: The British Empire is Gone	#23	[-]
Posts: 759 (12/11/2002 10:57:05) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	!? There's no accounting for ignorance... especially the wilfull kind that is based on some sort of prejudice or political correctness. If you want to live in a world where English is not spoken in every international hotel from Viet Nam to Nairobi to Paris, to Tokyo, so be it. That is not the real world. Tell ya what, let's see... at the next Olympics let's see what languages the announcements are made in... No universal language... and the moon is made of cream cheese (prove it isn't). "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart... I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand..." -- Jeremiah 15:16,17
Mitex	Re: English or Chinese?	#24	[-]
Posts: 1124 (12/11/2002 11:01:53) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	*Quote:* I think everyone knows when we speak of universal language are talking about the language that is most often used as a common language by people who do not speak the same language (but you knew that). In Latin American the trade language (universal language) is not English but Spanish! In Poland the trade langauge (universal langauge) is at times German, Russian and English. Those in Poland who do try to speak English are in no better position to correct their God given Polish Bibles with an alleged English authority than those in the USA who try to speak Greek are in position to correct their God given AV English Bibles with Greek. The AV in English is the recognized authority in English - that is both sides of the debate claim that the AV "is the word of God". The Polish Bible (Spanish or what ever) is the final authority for Polish speakers. Not the English, not "the Greek" and not "the Hebrew". Of course the main question to be asked is: Where is the Scriptural support for such a theory? 1. Hebrew wasn't ever an universal language. So where does that put the argument for the Old Testament saints? 2. The same principles that lead an AV Bible believer to the conclusion that the AV is the word of God in English can be applied to other languages as well - that is, languages other than English. 3. I certainly disagree with those who claim that English "is God's final court of appeal". I see no difference between this type of argument made by some who defend the AV and TC's argument which claims that Hebrew/Greek is the fianl court of appeal. 4. God divided the languages so that men might seek Him in GOD'S way not man's way! Notice Gen. 11:1-10, Acts 2:8, 1 Cor 14, and Acts 17:26,27; etc. 5. I find no Scriptures that indicate that the word of God was ever to be recognized by it's "original language" or "authorized language". Both sides are wrong on this point - KJVO's for appealing to "English Only" even for Greek speakers. And TC's for appealing to "Greek Only" even for English speakers. *Quote:* When people visit your church from other nations, they always speak a little English... Exactly! They speak "a little English"!! They are no more qualified to correct their foreign langauge Bibles with English than some hot shot seminary student who speaks (they usually don't even do that!) "a little GreeK' is in position to correct the AV English Bible with Greek. I have lived in Poland for the past 7 years and in Mexico 10 years prior to that. Mexicans and Poles do not speak English well! They surely don't understand English well enough to interpret our AV Bible! I say this after teaching English for the past three years to "upper class Poles" (not the "common street people who speak groovy speak"). Common people cannot afford proper English lessons. By forcing the issue with "English Only" you have fallen into the same trap as our "scholarly" friends have: CLERGY over the laity! The clergy has the language which makes them better equiped to understand the word of God and apply it to their lives than the common everyday man on the street! I say all this as a confirmed beleiver in the AV of the English Bible. I don't preach in English - I preach in Polish in Poland with the word of God in POLISH. I preached in Spanish in Mexico with the word of God in Spanish. And bless our Lord Jesus Christ while in America I preach in English from the word of God in English - the AV. In Jesus' Name, Brent Riggs netgate.newnanutilities.org/~ForHim/preachit.html www.grochow.2a.pl/~ch17027/defense.htm
steelmaker	The beast's mark	#25	[-]
Posts: 2084 (12/11/2002 11:41:18) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	One thing's for sure-it's now possible for the "mark of the beast" to be made using entirely man-made methods such as microchips. The fulfillment of many prophecies is like the movement of the hands on a clock. We see the second hand move,and we know that when it makes one rev, the minute hand will have moved 1/60th the circumference of the clock's face, but, stare as we may, we cannot perceive the movement of the minute hand. However,if we look away from the clock for a little while,we will see that the minute hand has indeed moved. In other words,if we try to equate every little newspaper story to the fulfillment of prophecy, we'll not see it too often,even though there are some unmistakable events such as the establishment of modern Israel as a sovereign Jewish nation which are prophetic milestones. I believe the next such milestone will be the Jews' crushing of the Palestinians. This could happen any day. read all about it in Zechariah, beginning Ch.9. The NKJV is a very understandable version of these prophecies concerning the Jews.
Bill R K	Re: I don't follow your logic.	#26	[-]
Posts: 876 (12/11/2002 14:12:45) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You wrote: You are saying (I think) that because we are in a time of apostacy, it is not a good time to be translating the Bible. No, it is always a good time to be translating the Bible into a language that doesn't have one. But when pressed against the wall by bold unbelief in nearly every intellectual discipline since Lyell, and especially since Darwin, it makes you suspicious of Textual Criticism as well. The totally unfair criticism of Cuvier, Linnaeus and Agassiz as sucking up to the religious crowd, heads stuck in the sand, by such non-scientific treatises such as Darwin's "Origin..." and "Descent of Man" (signally disproven within a decade or so of their appearance, the theory itself requiring significant realignment to keep afloat), and the same thing repeating itself in Geology (Hutton), Phsycology (Freud), and Astronomy (at least until Hubble), Anthropology, Archaeology, etc. the world turned on its head with Socialism and Communism, all attacking Christianity at its base. We see the apostasy, even you see the apostasy, yet do not make the jump from all of that to Textual Criticism. I can't separate them. The arrogance of Andrew Dickson White is almost the twin of Westcott's and Hort's and so many others of the age. But for some reason TCs don't recognize the same forces at work in their own background. Westcott and Hort were "friendlies" while Charles Darwin and Clarence Darrow were enemies. I admit that my world-view increases my confidence in this belief (KJVO), that is why I wondered if any TCs see it also. Therefore, it was not, and is still not, a good time to be correcting the Bible we already had as a standard.
raniac	Re: KJVO and "Last Days Madness"	#27	[-]
Posts: 135 (12/11/2002 15:31:20) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	you said: it will be noted that both "dispensational truth" and "premilleniallism" are the results of interpreting the scripture literally. The more literal you are, the more dispensational you will be. Of all the available "translations" there is none so literal as the KJV (Young's, as we know, is not all that literal...). It should not be surprising that those who study the KJV (a very literal rendering of the underlying Greek and Hebrew) would tend to take to a more literal exogesis -- which would lead them to dispensational truth and premillenialism. -------------------------------------------------- I disagree. I believe the bible literally and do read the KJV most of the time. Dispentionsationalism does violence to the unity of the scriptures. It puts divisions where none exist. For example, dispensational "truth" says that there are different ways of salvation for different time frames. But king David (who was supposedly under the law and saved by works) wrote in the psalms that he was saved by the mercy of God and not by anything he had done. Either dispensationalism is wrong or king David is wrong. I'll side with the scriptures. Salvation always has been by grace through faith.
raniac	Re: The British Empire is Gone (odep)	#28	[-]
Posts: 135 (12/11/2002 15:54:34) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I disagree odep. When I traveled in Italy, I had to learn enough italian to order train tickets--otherwise I wouldn't have gotten any. Maybe in the larger cities clerks would know some english, but not the ones in barely on the map towns. It also was the same way in Germany.
Psm37 37a KJV	I am not talking about "correcting"	#29	[-]
Posts: 1015 (12/11/2002 21:53:58) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am just talking about updating the English. Get the KJVO's together, exclude the TC's, and do your own update -- since no one (even Thomas Nelson) has been able to get it right. Why or why not is this a good idea? ------------------ When we live as if all life is spiritual -- which it surely is -- we translate the will of God into the minutiae of our lives, where it belongs. --Patrick M. Morley in The Man in the Mirror
greenbranch	Re: Finally an agreement!	#30	[-]
Posts: 2838 (12/11/2002 22:32:00) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	[i]1. Hebrew wasn't ever an universal language. So where does that put the argument for the Old Testament saints?[/i] How do you know Hebrew wasn't ever a universal language? What language did Abraham speak? He came from Chaldea, moved to Canaan and was able to converse with the locals there. For awhile he moved to Egypt and was able to converse with the locals there, so how do you know this? And, besides, in the OT time, wasn't God somewhat limiting His revelation of Himself to His chosen people, the Jews? Didn't that change with Christ and the very clear indication that the message was to be taken to the Gentiles, also? [i]5. I find no Scriptures that indicate that the word of God was ever to be recognized by it's "original language" or "authorized language". Both sides are wrong on this point - KJVO's for appealing to "English Only" even for Greek speakers. And TC's for appealing to "Greek Only" even for English speakers.[/i] The problem is, TCs don't appeal to Greek only. TCs do not insist that people read and study only the Greek New Testament. However, when there is a question over whether one translation is better than another for a specific word or verse, then the text needs to be consulted in the original language.
Psm37 37a KJV	I'm still waiting for evidence.....	#31	[-]
Posts: 1015 (12/11/2002 22:34:15) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	First of all, I appologize for the comments about WASP's, etc. That was going too far, even if I did mean it somewhat jokingly. I am certainly not PC -- far from it -- but when this issue comes up (about English being a universal language), it stirs up visions of bigotry within me. KJVO's have a tendency to see a liberal apostate behind every TC, I have a tendency to see a racially/culturally bigoted person behind those who proclaim English to be a universal language. This is entirely unfair on my part to make such judgments, and I am deepy sorry. The reason English is spoken in "every" international hotel is not because English is spoken by so many people, but because international hotels know how to treat their guests. (You can be sure they have employees who know Spanish, Chinese and Arabic.) Interntional hotels accomodate to those who have money and travel. Many Americans have money and travel. Americans speak English. Put two and two together. I have backed up my assertions with actual data from a reliable source. Why is it so much to ask you to do the same instead of making bold assertions with no evidence to back it up? Here is more evidence: The UN has six official languages: Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian , and Spanish. (UN Depot) You talk about the Olympics. Thank you. From 2003 Special Olypics web site: *Quote:* One of the many challenges that we will have to face in June 2003 will be providing adequate numbers of people who speak the wide variety of languages that will be spoken by the 165 countries scheduled to participate at the World Games. In all, over 50 languages will be in use and while it may not be possible to provide someone for every language, the search is on for volunteers who can speak a foreign language. To make things somewhat easier six official languages have been chosen for the 2003 Games - English, Russian, French, Spanish, Arabic and Mandarin Chinese. Why does the UN and Special Olympics need six official languages if English is so pervasive? BTW, the official languages of the (regular) Olympics are French (always first) and (then) English. English is not even primary there! Why is it the I have to do all the research around here? What else do I have to do to show that there is no universal language? You are the one not living in the real world. ------------------ When we live as if all life is spiritual -- which it surely is -- we translate the will of God into the minutiae of our lives, where it belongs. --Patrick M. Morley in The Man in the Mirror
Psm37 37a KJV	There's your anecdotal evidence! Thanks, raniac!	#32	[-]
Posts: 1015 (12/11/2002 22:41:29) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	------------------ When we live as if all life is spiritual -- which it surely is -- we translate the will of God into the minutiae of our lives, where it belongs. --Patrick M. Morley in The Man in the Mirror
Psm37 37a KJV	Dispensationalism myth	#33	[-]
Posts: 1015 (12/11/2002 22:47:53) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	For example, dispensational "truth" says that there are different ways of salvation for different time frames. Most Dispensationalists do not believe that. That is one commonly held myth about us. ------------------ When we live as if all life is spiritual -- which it surely is -- we translate the will of God into the minutiae of our lives, where it belongs. --Patrick M. Morley in The Man in the Mirror
greenbranch	Re: The British Empire is Gone	#34	[-]
Posts: 2838 (12/11/2002 22:50:49) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	[i]Tell ya what, let's see... at the next Olympics let's see what languages the announcements are made in... [/i] Don't have to wait for the next Olympics. I'll tell you what language the announcements are made in. They are made in French first, and then repeated in English. They are made in French because that is a language that is understood by most of the people involved, and in English because it is also understood by many, but, also because we Americans are too lazy to learn a second language and we do most of the TV coverage.
original deep elem preacher	Re: The British Empire is Gone (odep)	#35	[-]
Posts: 759 (12/11/2002 23:30:06) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	*Quote:* When I traveled in Italy, I had to learn enough italian to order train tickets Do you think you would have had better luck speaking Chinese? The idea of a universal language, international language, or lingua franca is not an absolute assertion that every man, woman and child on the planet can understand and use the language, it is simply the language that is most commonly used to bridge language barriers. I had the same experience in Taiwan and it worked very much to my advantage. I found in the cities everyone wanted to speak English with me and this was hindering my study of Chinese. I moved to the country side where practically no one spoke English and I was able to learn Chinese rather quickly. Every one who could speak English had moved to the city to work for a trading company or an export company, where they use English to communicate with importers in the US, Japan, Germany, Spain, and yes, even Italy. Italian importers who cannot communicate with Chinese exporters in English don't do much business. And that is my point. "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart... I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand..." -- Jeremiah 15:16,17
original deep elem preacher	Re: I am not talking about "correcting"	#36	[-]
Posts: 759 (12/11/2002 23:34:32) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's been done. Green has a "modern" KJV out, and there is also a 21st Century KJV -- all updated, and none of them gaining any acceptance at all. The problem is, they all "change" something, and when they do, we KJVOs get spooked and we have to go back and check the KJV again to make sure it's ok. It's like having a broken watch that is usually accurate, but once in a while stops. You always have to have another clock around to check it with. Kind makes the watch useless if you have to have another clock around to tell the time. Same thing with the "updated" KJVs... "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart... I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand..." -- Jeremiah 15:16,17
original deep elem preacher	Re: I'm still waiting for evidence.....	#37	[-]
Posts: 759 (12/11/2002 23:40:52) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I accept the apology, and I also apologize for my tone. I'm posting a new topic on English as an international language with more than just anecdotes... Be blessed... "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart... I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand..." -- Jeremiah 15:16,17
Psm37 37a KJV	Exactly on target, greenbranch	#38	[-]
Posts: 1015 (12/12/2002 00:17:04) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	------------------ When we live as if all life is spiritual -- which it surely is -- we translate the will of God into the minutiae of our lives, where it belongs. --Patrick M. Morley in The Man in the Mirror
Mitex	You made my point!	#39	[-]
Posts: 1124 (12/12/2002 03:05:49) Registered User More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	*Quote:* The problem is, TCs don't appeal to Greek only. TCs do not insist that people read and study only the Greek New Testament. However, when there is a question over whether one translation is better than another for a specific word or verse, then the text needs to be consulted in the original language. Thank you for making my point - after denying it! You appeal to something other than the word of God in English. You call it texts in the original language. In other words, when you say the English Bible is the word of God you mean to say: "The English Bible contains portions of the word of God. For the exact meaning in questionable places please consult some other language hopefully an original language text." For you, there are two types of "word of God" - an English type which has less authority and an original language type which has more authority. You will correct the English with your presumed and prefered greater authority - an original language text. I fail to see the difference between your position and the "English Only" position. Both your position and the English Only position puts authority in the "language of the text" and not the text itself! Is the AV the word of God? If the answer is an unwaffled yes (and not, "Well it contains the word of God") then that is your final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine - period! There is no need to appeal to a higher authority because there is no higher authority than the word of God! In Jesus' Name, Brent Riggs netgate.newnanutilities.org/~ForHim/preachit.html www.grochow.2a.pl/~ch17027/defense.htm
Bill R K	Do TCs not see any apostasy in modern Textual Criticism?	#40	[-]
Posts: 876 (12/12/2002 07:30:28) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The problem is the apostasy. Updating the English would have been a great thing. It would have made my "family altar" with my young children easier. But this controversy came about because those in charge of updating the English decided to correct the Bible. Even the modern updates have also "corrected" things in the KJV that didn't need correcting. Pastors and supposed experts are constantly "correcting" the KJV with their own very small opinions. They almost never give the KJV a fair shake, much less the reverence it deserves. I know this borders on heresy for a TC, but in my view, no believers should have gotten on that bandwagon, and most didn't, at least until after sputnik. The reason why we KJVOs do not trust modern KJVs now is because we recognize the apostasy. It isn't a theoretical objection to revision in general. It is an involuntary reaction similar to what we do when a dog snaps at us. We not only jerk our limbs out of the way, we keep our eye on the dog. Do TCs not see apostasy in Textual Criticism?

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KJVO and "Last Days Madness"