Timmy> The point about the TR editions does not blow away the perfect preservation argument in the least. I am sure that Waite, Brandenburg, Strouse etc are not sitting on eggshells hoping that some BJU graduate who has passed 101 Greek will find out this fact and expose them! Clearly, you have not been reading anything that they have written on the subject but simply responding to the GARs of this world and hoping that she reflects the whole spectrum of opinion. Brandenburg, for instance, has made great pains in his book and on his website to show that the promises of preservation apply to the WORDS not to a single TR Edition. The reception of those WORDS must be through the Church and historically there is only one line of this that has been documented that fits with the Scriptural pattern. Now if you disagree with the Scriptural pattern he exegetes and/or the application of it you must do so by providing an alternative. Any independent thinker reading through pages of infantile baiting here or on Sharper Iron by Joseph can see that he has never once managed to do that.
Yes, Joseph we have no apographs that bridge the first 4 centuries from the NT autographs. The best that the Critical Text supporters can do is produce the fourth century (still in debate) "Heavenly Twins" that contradict one another in thousands of places and insert Apocryphal books as part of the multiple editors' and copyists' Scripture. Hardly the reliable bridge that Joseph is pinning his hopes on! However, it may well be that Joseph has heard something at the Vineyard Church that the rest of the ecclesiastical world has overlooked. I guess we will have no await this new revelation with baited breath. Do they have a museum there? Doubtless we will all have to wait for the 2010 Joseph Ng Study Bible to document what is vaguely hypothesized in Joseph's mind. Or may be he will tell us when he delivers the Bruce Metzger Memorial Lecture at his Racially challenged alma mater next year, who are very prone to new revelations about doctrine.
I am not arguing for facts alone. I leave that spurious method to you and Euthymius. What I was demonstrating was that your FACTS don't amount to a hill of beans and will lead you into a spiral of perennial uncertainty.
Again the self-styled inter-faith apologist, Joseph fails to put forth any positive case for his position from Scripture. He even says such as request is "hilarious." No doubt his comical approach makes him a legend in his own house, but they do not impress the biblicist. He fits the bill well for the CT alter ego Riplinger! I don't know how his arguments would blow away Islamic preconceptions from his "contacts" - probably explains why they are still contacts! If my assertion is untrue and genuine ad hominem that you are not "cryptic" then blow me away before all of your pals and state the biblical basis and application for you repeated claim "the locus n duration of preservation are found in direct teachings within the canon." Please help we poor Bereans. Just give us the SCRIPTURE Joseph. Let me repeat to prevent you having some more Vineyard hilarity - GIVE US THE SCRIPTURE!!!
blown away by--not any particular refutation fr the non-KJBO side, for there's nothing substantial to refute in his "case" thus far--the exposure of his own LACK of any Biblical or FACTual grounds, Timmy must continue his assault on the biblical position on textual preservation on Sola Ad Hominem (not one of the 5 solas of the Reformation
). his attempt at "neutral observer" anonymity appears to be wearing exceedingly thin n fragile, n the
self-styled "biblicist" (ooooh, we be shakin' in our boots!) seems a little stung, paralyzed by the incisive prospect of examining the Scriptures
for himself (the "homework" to be avoided at all costs). unexpectedly unmasked, he resorts to trying to elicit Scripture data from others, like
"Joseph fails to put forth ... his position from Scripture," "help we (sic) poor Bereans," bla bla n bla. of course, a true Berean or biblicist--not some KJBO troll--wld believe the Bible n let ITS evidence lead where it does. a true Bible believer
wld not ignore the uncomfortable glare of the Light to cling to some cherished unbiblical presupposition. if he's ever published or uttered certain
hitherto unbiblical comments, he wld yield to the Words n to the Spirit in repentance, n retract those worthless theories. there's room at the cross.
it's sad that, for now, not only has Timmy's foolosophical tree manifested itself to be barren, but it's hanging with weird random references to Bruce Metzger Memorial Lectures, "apographs that bridge 4 centuries from the NT autographs," "Heavenly Twins" (what? Timmy a card-carryin' Aquarian Ager?), n the Vineyard Church, among others in earlier posts. the whole thing is built on one flimsy (= hilarious) argument that preservation n canon must be determined by a church body, n that the TR must be it, as corrected by the KJB (cos, as acknowledged, there are so many pesky variants among the multiple TR n KJB editions). the whole thing's futile, unsubstantiated by church history (except for that infamous Tridentine spell), the corpus of MSS, or scriptural teaching, n quite against the Scripture, as his homework will show. yet we can be grateful that he did post his fideistic strategem here on this board, for as a wise saying goes, "by their fruits ye shall know them."
ultimately, it won't be logic or might that takes down false teachings like VPPism, Ruckmanism, Vulgate-Onlyism, n Brandenburgerism. it will be the Scriptures themselves. that's why they avoid certain Scriptures like the plague, n explain others away that don't fit their predetermined, Bible-less presuppositions. rather than engage with the Bible homework first-hand--which he no doubt dishes out to others in his circle of influence--Timmy chooses to lie back n scream, "Just give us the SCRIPTURE Joseph. Let me repeat to prevent you having some more Vineyard hilarity - GIVE US THE SCRIPTURE!!!"
shd we really give someone Bible evidence, who won't do his Bible homework? well, let's indulge this demand just once (even a divisive false teacher, "an heret*ck" gets a 2nd admonition). if he'll do the homework (appended below to help Timmy), the Scriptural evidence can be discussed. so here's Timmy's homework again:
from http://bibleversiondiscus.../getrefs/id/49347/type/0
assuming u read the NT and OT, underline all the occasions where Jesus or the Apostles quote the OT. how many times do they go with the Masoretic Text (that Waite n other KJBOs claim is THE preserved whatever)?
1.
2.
3.
how many times do they NOT?
1.
2.
3.
4.
...
now, we've given Timmy the Scripture homework handout again. if he does it n reflects on it, he might even post some of his brilliant new-found insights regarding linking canon with the nature of textual preservation ... let's see if he can draw his sword n list a couple of examples.
