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BULLINGER - thumbs up, or thumbs down, or just whatever

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forcyncia		#41	[-]
Posts: 79 (10/24/2009 14:57:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Amarillo said: on the other hand, might it not be a little anomalous in the Gen. 1 context to make the Creator one of creatures, among "the stars also"? Where does it say that these stars are holy? Where are they worshipped in "The Stars Also"? Is one star more powerful, holier than the others? Are there unlucky ones? The more appropriate view is that they were the comic book of the day. Pictures to tell a story. This is the thinking behind the icons in the Orthodox church. They began as pictures to teach the illiterate about the Bible and the story of Jesus - birth to resurrection. And of course the icon 'O Pantokrator - creator of all things. God did not become a star or place himself in the heavens. But Amarillo, God did become one of the creatures, he became Jesus the man. Don't they speak of this as "O Magnum Mysterium"? Amarillo said: i agree. while the Scriptures occasionally speak of "dark/mysterious sayings" or "riddles" (e.g Prov. 1:6), by and large God's Word is characterized as "light" and "instruction." Deut. 29:29 puts a stop to the kabbalistic hankering for secret meanings: it puts the focus squarely on obeying the lines themselves and not what's between the lines. To see God's beauty in nature has been a large part of scripture. Ps 150:1,6 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. Ps 149:1-14 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. 6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. 7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: 8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: 9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: 10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: 11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth: 12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children: 13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory [is] above the earth and heaven. 14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; [even] of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD. Euthymius said: Why anyone thinks they need to search beyond the plain and clear statements of Scripture, and look for "secret meanings" in both Scripture and nature, I have no idea. I for one certainly will not go that route, nor be much accepting of those who do. forcyncia: Because they want to see God. God is Big forcyncia John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." Last Edited By: forcyncia 10/24/2009 15:06:26. Edited 1 times.
Euthymius		#42	[-]
Posts: 2168 (10/24/2009 19:11:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	forcync: Euthymius said: Why anyone thinks they need to search beyond the plain and clear statements of Scripture, and look for "secret meanings" in both Scripture and nature, I have no idea. I for one certainly will not go that route, nor be much accepting of those who do. forcyncia: Because they want to see God. That last comment is where it becomes dangerous, and opens the door for anyone at any time in any way to start trying to "see God" in any manner they wish. I know -- I have seen numerous people trying to do so in everything from nature worship to cults to New Age and Kabbalah, and even in 12-step recovery plans..... As I said before, "why anyone thinks they need to search beyond the plain and clear statements of Scripture....I have no idea." The whole concept of Sola Scriptura is thereby perverted or lost entirely, and those who head into those routes usually end up with some "new" information or "revelation" that clearly goes beyond Scripture. Why they do this is beyond me, but I suspect it is the old nature's inclination to reject absolute truth and like the Athenians continue to seek for "some new thing". Bottom line: there is no need for Bullinger's "Witness of the Stars," Seiss' "Gospel in the Stars", Burgess' "The Stars Also" or Star Trek's "To seek out new worlds." Scripture alone is sufficient. Beyond that, we can look at and appreciate the handiwork of God in nature, the earth, the universe, galaxies, and the stars -- but without any need whatever to seek out hidden meanings in any of them. As a final thought, I strongly recommend the essay from the CEN Technical Journal, vol. 12, no. 2, 1998, Is there a Gospel in the Stars," by Danny Faulkner (I don't go along with Carl Wieland's follow-up comment, however; Faulkner lays it out plain and clear): <http://ldolphin.org/zodiac/faulkner.html> Last Edited By: Euthymius 10/24/2009 19:16:36. Edited 1 times.
77		#43	[-]
Posts: 964 (10/25/2009 11:17:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Euthymius wrote: forcync: Euthymius said: Why anyone thinks they need to search beyond the plain and clear statements of Scripture, and look for "secret meanings" in both Scripture and nature, I have no idea. I for one certainly will not go that route, nor be much accepting of those who do. forcyncia: Because they want to see God. That last comment is where it becomes dangerous, and opens the door for anyone at any time in any way to start trying to "see God" in any manner they wish. I know -- I have seen numerous people trying to do so in everything from nature worship to cults to New Age and Kabbalah, and even in 12-step recovery plans..... As I said before, "why anyone thinks they need to search beyond the plain and clear statements of Scripture....I have no idea." The whole concept of Sola Scriptura is thereby perverted or lost entirely, and those who head into those routes usually end up with some "new" information or "revelation" that clearly goes beyond Scripture. Why they do this is beyond me, but I suspect it is the old nature's inclination to reject absolute truth and like the Athenians continue to seek for "some new thing". Bottom line: there is no need for Bullinger's "Witness of the Stars," Seiss' "Gospel in the Stars", Burgess' "The Stars Also" or Star Trek's "To seek out new worlds." Scripture alone is sufficient. Beyond that, we can look at and appreciate the handiwork of God in nature, the earth, the universe, galaxies, and the stars -- but without any need whatever to seek out hidden meanings in any of them. As a final thought, I strongly recommend the essay from the CEN Technical Journal, vol. 12, no. 2, 1998, Is there a Gospel in the Stars," by Danny Faulkner (I don't go along with Carl Wieland's follow-up comment, however; Faulkner lays it out plain and clear): <http://ldolphin.org/zodiac/faulkner.html> 77: "Because they want to see God." And there you have the seed of gnosticism. Some special, extra-Biblical knowledge, accessible, invariably, exclusively to the initiated. And it's always just a little bit more than just the Gospel; after all, if it was only that, there would be no need to avert one's gaze from the scriptures. "Truly, good Christian reader, we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one of a good one ... but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principle good one, not justly to be expected against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark."
forcyncia		#44	[-]
Posts: 80 (10/25/2009 13:53:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanx Euth - I'm going to check that out. You are correct in saying many people have gotten themselves in deep trouble by seeking after some experience. However, the experience sought after me. I was way to young to comprehend what happened. At the time, at age 17 I was altered for a lifetime. That carried some stick-to-your-ribs profundity I can never forget. I believe it is etched across my soul for eternity. It is impossible to put parts of it into words. However it was scriptural in its content. It was not for publication worldwide. It was only personal. It made a difference in my life where I would have killed myself had I not had the hope it brought to me. At some points in my life all faith and reason to live had been decimated. This was the one little shred of Jesus Christ that would come back to me. Then life had to be rebuilt again from beneath the foundations upwards. I keep grounded in the Word and remember my signature line along with: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing." One must always be looking at Jesus. forcyncia John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
forcyncia		#45	[-]
Posts: 81 (10/25/2009 14:00:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	77 said: And there you have the seed of gnosticism. Some special, extra-Biblical knowledge, accessible, invariably, exclusively to the initiated. And it's always just a little bit more than just the Gospel; after all, if it was only that, there would be no need to avert one's gaze from the scriptures. Not all is heresy. Sometimes it's just pure God as what little I will share with you above is. later spater forcyncia John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
amarillo		#46	[-]
Posts: 3523 (10/25/2009 18:43:30) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Forcy, the challenge, then, is to walk past those experiences, lifesaving n spectacular n biblical as they might seem, n cling only to the Word of God. church history is rife with experiences like yours that sometimes turned out right but often turned out badly. Dominic n Mary's milk led to the "blessed" rosary. Joe Smith's encounter with an angel that helped him "translate Middle Egyptian" led to pairs of teenage boy Elders hawking their message of hope all over, um, my backyard. Agnes Ozman n Charles Parham's mystical moment after Watchnite Service led to the founding of the modern Pentecostal n Charismatic movements. what i'm saying is that we need the fortitude to walk away from some of these very personal experiences n go only with the Word--sola scriptura. that's cos we can't know--on the same level we know scripture--that these things are from God. we never know--we think we know--but there's always room to be mistaken. so, the Reformers echoed the sentiment of Scripture when they yelled the five Solas, by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. ultimately, we dare do nothing more than to walk by faith (in God's Word alone) n not by sight (whether insight or even inner sight!). Joseph Ng "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Ps 119:89 KJB
forcyncia		#47	[-]
Posts: 82 (10/26/2009 17:23:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	amarillo said: Forcy, the challenge, then, is to walk past those experiences, lifesaving n spectacular n biblical as they might seem, n cling only to the Word of God. That is really cutting to the heart of it. Because that experience, or the need for it becomes an idol sought after like the quest for the Holy Grail. That is why I'm a Baptist again. I heard too much in nondenominational churches such as, "Did you feel the anointing?" The anointing was the verification of God in the service or preacher or healing... I do not put all of my brothers and sisters who share the doctrine similar to the AOG in the same basket. There is an AOG church next to our Baptist church. I have always seen them as Biblically sound and studying the Word. Years ago I went to a worship conference that took the entire weekend. I had lots of problems with that particular group. That Sunday morning I was in a Sunday School class. A man the pastor had newly ordained as a minister of the church taught the class about David and Michal. He did not even know the players in the story, who Michal was, the meaning of the passage, the lesson to learn, etc. It was pathetic. He was ordained because he was a good man who prayed well and there was probably an anointing on him. I don't want to judge him about anything regarding is relationship to God. But he did not have a grasp of Scripture. Your point is well taken amarillo. And yes, I had to deal with that also. I was young and unloved by my family. Finally God has me where He wants me. To say that God is or is not in it is something that one must go to Scripture to discern. I have no doubt about my experience. I don't have to defend it. But I'm not going to make my identity here hang on it. I just wanted to make clear that it was of God. If you have never had such an experience you really are not in a position to judge all experiences. I don't want to say this in any flippant way, but if this ever happened to you, it'd knock your socks off as well. You would have a whole lot of reading in Scripture to do, and thereby a whole lot of thinking to do as well. So that's the end of it and I hope we can let if be. I think we've exhausted this - well I'm done with it. forcyncia John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." Last Edited By: forcyncia 10/26/2009 17:34:21. Edited 1 times.

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